xjwsforChrist

Hello my brother Armand,..

I feel your passion and hear your truth!

Love to you always,
Justmom

Ditto what justmom said.

LQ - Great scripture, it eluded me yesterday, thanks for the reminder.

Appreciated hearing your experiences and views Armand, which many share. It's true, we don't 'hate' the people anymore than we hate the JWs, it's the institutions and their dogma we object to.

Loz x

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

They don't pray to the Saints as if they are God.

The saints can be seen as an "advocate" of sorts

At the end of prayer why do some end with "In Jesus name we pray"?

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To fear me is to love me....

AGuest wrote:



Oh this is dangerous

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To fear me is to love me....

As the Puppy rightly says, Catholics don't pray to the saints as if they are God. Catholics believe in the saints as a community who have gone before us, and ask them, individually or collectively according to circumstance, to pray to God for us. The great community, the cloud of witnesses, of whom Saint Paul speaks, who have already run the race set before us.

You may choose to object to that belief, but it would be reasonable to know exactly what you object to instead of to a concept born of misunderstanding.

Shelby, I'll answer your earlier question later when I get a minute.

For reference, if some don't know, Arianism is applied to the belief of Arius, and as I said was the first philosophical branch to deviate from the understandings Christ gave us. Subsequent heresies would be Pelagianism and Manicheism, close to Gnosticism.

Wiki and Google will be your friends here, if these terms are unfamiliar.

Your post of questions is a long one, Shelby, but I'll now address it. Up tp this point, the day has been very full.

I wrote:



You replied:



Why not, Shelby? Why is it that you are not sure? How could I have made it clearer for you than word for word, which you had above?



1. "Is it your position that you all are... ummmmmm... correct... BECAUSE you a "large body... all over the world, of very many denominations"?"

Why do you think that, Shelby? What is it in what I wrote that led you to ask such a strange question? I claimed no position. I told the truth. I merely described the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, a doctrine believed by a very large number of Christians who BELIEVE it. Not because very many do. But because they believe it. As I do. With all my heart.

2. "Or is it because Christ himself revealed it to you?"

Indeed. God the Father and God the Son: Matthew 11:27. "No-one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

God the Holy Spirit: John 14:16-17, 26.

"I shall ask the Father
and he will give you another Advocate
to be with you for ever,
that Spirit of truth
whom the world can never receive
since it neither sees nor knows him;
but you know him,
because he is with you, he is in you."

"but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you everything
and remind you of all I have said to you."

John 16:13

"But when the Spirit of truth comes
he will lead you to the complete truth,
since he will not be speaking from himself
but will say only what he has learnt;"

At work since Creation, having previously spoken through the Prophets, the Spirit wil now be with and in the disciples to teach them and guide them into all the truth.

3." If he revealed it to you, HOW did he do that? Was it by means?"

See above.

4. " By holy spirit? And if by holy spirit, HOW did he do it? "

As above.

5. "Or, if by holy spirit, do you mean by the Holy Spirit, isn't that the same one as Christ himself, per 2 Corinthians 3:17? "

I note that introductory "Or". A lawyer's trick of false logic. There is no "or". This is a supplementary question. You mean "And". As such, the answer would be, no, it is not the same, and Christ, although ascending to his Father as spirit, is not "a" spirit, and most definitely not a "same one". The Holy Spirit and the Son are not the same person, as we see in the verses quoted above.

6. " If so, and so by Christ, the Holy Spirit... where is the "extra" Holy Spirit you and others speak of coming from? Who is that one... and what is his/its 'name' (because many believe in such an entity because of their belief that Christ disciples were to be baptized "in the name of the Father (so, okay, JAH/JAHVEH, Yahweh, even Jehovah)... and of the Son (Jah eShua, Joshua, Yeshua, etc., or even "Jesus")... and pf the Holy Spirit (whose name is... what, dear one?)."

"If so"....but it is NOT so. (see above.) Thus the rest of this question, built upon that "if so", is dependent upon a false supposition. There is no "extra Holy Spirit, that is either your imagination running away with you or a failure to understand. Or deliberate obfuscation, of which, of course, you would not be guilty.

7. " If not by any of these, when HOW do you KNOW? Who (or what?) "told" you... and how?"

Answered above, but I note that introductory "If not by any of these"...another lawyers' trick designed to confuse but not only has the device already been discerned and addressed but the very point itself answered.

Your suppositions are not correct, and my submission has been clearly stated and justified.



I see that once again you are not sure, Shelby. I hope that my answers above have helped to clarify it all for you.



I do not base my answers on the very simple chart you found, Shelby. Arianism was studied as part of the specialisms within my degree, and thus in depth.



I'm sure you can't, Shelby, not, naturally, that you would want to stress and exaggerate anything that could be cast in a negative light to do with the Church. As we know, many things have changed in the last two thousand years. Neither do you know, perhaps, of all the good that is done.



Not in the least. It wouldn't worry me if you did.



I am sure that many and varied beliefs can be found "out there". There is no limit to mental ingenuity.

Now, I have a question for you.

1.Why did you feel the need to present me with a questionnaire, almost an inquisition, couched in lawyer-ese?

2.Were you hoping to find a flaw in my reasoning? To catch me out?

3. To whom are you speaking when you ask your questions and seek guidance?

4. You have frequently said it is to your Lord. Who do you say that is?

5. If it is Christ whom you call your Lord, by what means is he communicating with you?

6. Do you hear him with internal or external ears?

7. If internal, how do you hear him? If external, whhere would such a voice be coming from? And, in either instance, by what means are you sure and by what means can you substantiate and back up such claims?

I ask, not in a spirit of contention, but for two reasons. Firstly, because many would very much like to have these questions fully answered in one place for the record, and secondly, although it might seem to you that you are being asked to find substantiation for points that to you are a matter for sincere belief and which you have already addressed elsewhere on more than one occasion, yet I am sure that, since you asked me to do the same, you will have known there would be benefit in it.

I too have been glad of the opportunity to further validate and enunciate my own beliefs and thank you for giving me that opening.

Good morning, dear Char... and peace to you! I want to respond to your comments in response to my questions but have an important appointment today, so I am going to just respond to YOUR questions to me, for now, because I truly want you to understand, not misunderstand, my intent.



I must apologize for the appearance of lawyer-ease. I was not conscious of it, truly. It is how I would present such to anyone, not just you. I do "think" in that vernacular, which might be why I was drawn to attend law school. I felt the need to present you with such, though, because I was directed to, as a result of your comments prior.



You, specifically? No, dear Char. Not you. But perhaps the "reasoning" you have acquired, due to your religious association. I cannot deny that. But you do the same, do you not, with regard to the erroneous beliefs and teachings of JWs, yes? So surely, on an exJW site a practicing Catholic who takes issues with things such as others' faith would understand that issue might be taken with his/hers. You know, the whole "good for the goose/good for the gander," thing?



To the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Which I have readily, willingly, and openly confessed, professed, admitted, and stated... here and elsewhere... to you and all others. I have not hidden that at all, dear one, nor am I afraid to opening state it.



Again, he is the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... who is the Son and Christ of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies. I know him and who and what he is... so I don't have any fear of openly SAYING who my Lord is, dear one. Not at ALL. Because I am not ashamed of him... OR afraid of what any man (or woman) might think of or say about me for saying so. I AM afraid of leading him to think that I AM afraid of him... or more afraid of what others might say/think about me than what HE might say/think about me.



By means of holy spirit, the blood (and breath/semen) of God, dear one. In this case, the blood. Because the blood speaks. His to us... and ours to Him... through my Lord. But surely, you know this, yes?



With both, dear one, my spiritual "ears" as well as my physical ears, depending on which "man" I am he is speaking TO: internally, through the ears of my spirit, the "man" I am on the inside, or externally, to my physical ears when he's speaking to that "man." How about you?

7. If internal, how do you hear him? If external, where would such a voice be coming from? And, in either instance, by what means are you sure and by what means can you substantiate and back up such claims?

Internally, though our unified blood (holy spirit and my own blood)... to the "ears" of the spirit being I am (we all are). Externally, as anyone would: to my physical ears. In both bases, he is speaking from the spirit realm ("heavens" - Hebrews 12:25). Because that realm is both outside of us... and, by means of Christ, inside of us. JAH Himself resides outside of us, but by means of holy spirit, His blood, which is granted by Christ through HIS blood... they come and resided (dwell/make their abode) IN us. John 14:23; Romans 8:9, 10



And I didn't ask in a spirit of contention, either, dear Char. But it seems to me that whenever you ARE asked something you immediately take offense, go on the defensive, and perceive it as an attack. But for some reason, you are able to completely overlook when you literally attack. I don't quite get that, but I realize that it is up to Christ as to how fast your "training" progresses, not me.



Yes, I totally understand that and have absolutely NO problem with responding. More than once, to ANY who might ask. Indeed, I have said that I am the servant, so how could I believe that and refuse? Again, I have nothing to hide - I am not ashamed of what occurs nor afraid that some might not receive it.



You are quite welcome! I am a bit... mmmmmmm... reluctant to respond to the first part of your comments, as I do NOT want to offend you! That is NOT my intent or purpose. However, I think doing so will ALSO be beneficial for those who "want to know." So, I will look to that when I return tonight or perhaps tomorrow. Don't be surprised, though, if others beat me to it... because you have stated some things that literally BEG for clarification/correction. I'm sorry - again, I mean NO offense. But if you can be convinced in YOUR belief and understanding, that it is accurate, I am sure you can accept that others may be, as well, and will publicly declare such, especially if and as the Spirit compels/directs them, yes?

So, I do look forward to continuing this discussion, if YOU are amenable to it. If so, perhaps we can lay the ground rule that neither TAKE offense, but give the other the benefit of the doubt that we are only trying to share information with one another, NOT take one another's "tone" negatively or attribute a "bad" motive, but just take each other as WE have come to know one another... and "reason" (versus argue) on these things? I realize that that term might cause you some consternation due to the WTBTS' misuse/abuse of it, but it really is an appropriate way for us to continue.

Again, peace to you, TRULY!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

Shellama

Yppuplleh:

By stating that “They don’t pray to the Saints as if they are God,” you are inadvertently ADMITTING that they do, in fact, pray to Saints nonetheless—just not AS IF they are God. (Makes me shake my head.)

Then you state: “The saints can be seen ‘as’ an “advocate” of sorts. BLASPHEMY!!! The ONLY Advocate we true Christians have is the Christ. The Bible emphatically so states this. Do I need to cite if for you? And even if it were true, which it is not, in what “sorts” of ways are they as you claim them to be? That would be interesting to learn.

As for your last question, the answer is because no one—NO ONE—gains access to the Father except through Christ. That’s why they say that.

--Armand


Dear Chariklo:

For your information, the Puppy is in error. But that’s okay. Error can be corrected. Did not Priscilla and Aquila correctly instruct a fellow believer?

You, however, state: “Catholics believe in the saints as a community who have gone before us, and ask them, individually or collectively according to circumstance, to pray to God for us.” (Emphasis mine. Again, I’m shaking my head in disbelief.)

Chariklo, Dead Saints, dead Christians, ARE DEAD. They are ASLEEP under the altar. Would you speak to a sleeping spouse or child AND EXPECT that spouse or child to respond to you and to answer you or to speak to someone else in the household and deliver your message that you spoke to them while they were asleep? Seriously?

The Saints will not be awakened UNTIL the Master returns. Dead Saints cannot pray to God for us or for anyone, not even for themselves. Again, they are ASLEEP in death.

The Dead do not even praise God. They surely cannot speak in or on our behalf.

Yes, I object to “that belief” as you and the Puppy describe. What I object to, Chariklo, is lies, false doctrine, and, yes, based on a misunderstanding of what IS WRITTEN as well as of what one hears from Our Lord himself.

--Armand

http://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU

Alo Armand ill reply in a bit if no one else does

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To fear me is to love me....

No, Armand, you are mistaken.

Those who die are not asleep under the altar. That is Jehovah's Witness teaching, which I do know in great depth and detail, but I do not subscribe to any of it. Their teaching on death is not correct at all. Christ came and, by rising from the dead, conquered death. He lives, and through him we have eternal life. Not on earth. In heaven.

The saints are not advocates. They intercede (pray) for us before the Father. Far from being dead they are in heaven. We also have the Holy Spirit as Advocate. Jehovah's Witnesses do not understand this, and they are hampered and limited in their understanding because they have been taught that God's Spirit is not a person, just a kind of force or energy.

They just don't know.

The Puppy is not in error, for the most part. He does very well, for a puppy. I'm afraid you're in error, Armand, but not your fault.

I don't object to your beliefs, Armand, because you just don't know. But you are very, very wrong.

Alo there I imagine that with all your head shaking you must have some well developed neck musculature

I do not know what has soured you so much towards Catholicism and filled you with so much anger and bitterness not just to that religion but also to the way people pray. Why does it affect you so that others worship and pray differently than you?

Also this is the first time you have addressed me. What have I personally done to you to reply in such a combative and rude manner? Do I deserve to be treated this way? If so then please tell me why. Have I insulted you in some way that I am not aware of? You asked a question and I gave an answer.

Do you condemn the Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus? Do you also condemn the Hindus? Buddhists? Muslims? All who do not worship and approach God as you do? How very judgemental and lacking in compassion.

You mention "true Christians". How sure are you that you are among them? As for access to God through Jesus, I believe that Moses, Job, Daniel, Ezekiel, Noah, etc had access to God before Jesus was born upon the earth.

You seem to twists words around and attempt to substitute words in place of what is spoken to suit your argument. You are treading a very fine line of subtle deceit by doing so.

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To fear me is to love me....

Shelby, you say that surely in an exjw site a practising Catholic (yes, that's me) who "takes issues with others' beliefs"...

Shelby, don't please take offence when I state my beliefs nor assume that I am "taking issue" with yours or anyone else's. like Voltaire, I may not agree with what you believe but I will defend (Voltaire said to the death, but I draw the line at that) your right to believe whatever you choose.

The operative words in your post, though, are "ex-JW site". Yes, it is that, (and I have always assumed that as someone who so nearly got dragged into the JW scene I would not only be welcome but was included in the title.) however, it is a matter of constant astonishment to me that those who are evidently EX JW's nonetheless still hold so many JW beliefs.

I, on the other hand, have never once left my Catholic beliefs and hold them very strongly, but when I explain something about Catholics, very often in response to false information you have received or something you (or others) may have misunderstood, you call me defensive, as above.

It is not I who takes offence, dear Shelby!

Good morning...

Although there is a lot here, I will address a portion that I need to correct.
Chariklo, my sister, it is you that is mistaken. You are in error as to the full understanding of the JWs teaching of death.

Although their understanding is definitely in error and I do not agree with them, they do not teach that those who die go under the alter. They taught that only " the holy ones" (144,000)
Went under the altar and that when CHRIST went his way back to heaven and so-called cleaned it out, and began ruling in 1914 shortly after this, in 1919 the RESURRECTION ( first) of the holy ones (144,000) began.
Since that time period of 1919, the remnant of the 144,000 no longer " sleep in death" but twinkle immediately to heaven today!
They teach EVERYONE else dies and returns to the dust where the world of the dead ARE! Awaiting the second resurrection!

Although this is a lie as well, I felt you needed to have clarification of this.

As to Christ coming and conquering and opening up the heavens to those that belong to Him,
This concept is partially correct.
Yes those that belong to Him as His body WILL go to heaven, but for a marriage to take place all together and then return to the earth as co- rulers. New Jeruselum coming down out of heaven as a bride ( people Revelation 21:1&2). This is the first ( or better) resurrection described in the bible. (Revelation 20:6)

But Dear Char THIS resurrection has not even taken place to this day!

His body is still being gathered and those that " HAVE" died are under the alter awaiting at revelation 6: 9-11 their resurrection and their blood being avenged. They are alive in the sense that their blood speaks as those in sheol
and hades cannot as they did not have life within themselves by not belonging to CHRIST but are awaiting the second resurrection. ( revelation 20:12-15)

The resurrection that those of us as a body belonging to CHRIST are longing and awaiting for is described in 1Thessalonians 4:13-17. This is the first resurrection.

When our Lord returns and gathers those of the body, those that are ALIVE when he returns DO NOT PRECEDE those that have fallen asleep in death ( holy ones or those that are under the alter)
We ALL together are joined with CHRIST in the air, those alive when he returns along with "those that have died". Since he has not returned YET, the resurrection has not BEGUN!

I understand you may disagree with this, but it is all there in writing.

Just wanted to clarify and share what has been given me by Holy Spirit.

Love to you all
Justmom.

We are all mistaken

I can't help but smile

<------ see! Smiling

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To fear me is to love me....