xjwsforChrist

What concerns me, Shel, and it does concern...and puzzle me...is that if, for example, two people GO to Christ and ask on a particular issue, the whole thing is entirely subjective, necessarily so, because each will be approaching from their own personal standpoint, and hearing in an entirely subjective way.

Now, whereas you yourself may have a particular gift, others may not have that particular gift. I think you will say in response that all people, everyone, can go to Christ and ask. This is true, and this is the nature of prayer. "Ask, and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you." Those who pray regularly do this all the time, and others may do so in time of need.

But you are suggesting...not in this particular thread so much, but in many posts, that people should go to Christ to check the truth of something, virtually to seek information. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that this is your own approach, is it not? Now, you yourself have laudable confidence in this process. But imagine a scenario where different people go to Christ and receive different answers. Very different. Perhaps diametrically opposed. Yet each is convinced, and is prepared to convince others, that their answer is indeed from Christ. Can this then be the same Christ to whom they are going?

Surely, in such an instance, it's obvious that the experience is highly subjective. What happens in our heads remains in our heads. We can tell others what we think or what we hear, so to speak, but no-one actually knows except ourselves. It's in no way objective, cannot be checked or verified. And although one person may have the certainty that they do indeed have the gift of a direct communication with Our Lord, however sincere and genuine that person may be, if many others purport to undertake the same process and proclaim their own communications received, doesn't this then become unreliable? And such people tend to exalt themselves among the ordinary folk who perhaps have prayerful times but who would not dream of making such claims.

No-one can say this is so or that is so. No-one knows or has any ability to know. It must surely be entirely subjective.

YES and YES!!!!!

I can say Amen to all of what you have shared my sister Shelby. These other comments stood out as something so wonderful to me as this is TOO what my Lord and master shared with me in my coming out of the WTBS.

He told me that it was NOW time for HIM to lead me by means of Holy Spirit. That is the anointing that you are receiving that is teaching you NOW. Not MAN, not a visible entity or institution of ANY kind.
This is how 1 John 2: 26-29 is being fulfilled for you.
You have been most of your life under men in charge and it is milk that you have been partaking of.
He told me that NOW he was to reveal beyond the elementary things and that I would be partaking "OF HIM " confessing my union with him/ therefore belonging to Him and not men and under law.

This is what I heard directly from my Lord and I share this with you all.

He has continually reminded me over the years that any organization, visible structure, man- made entity, corporation, religion, even the local corner neighborhood church ....
Are instruments used by our adversary to mislead and enslave mankind all over again. It makes people keep looking to something visible to "SEE " Christ and NEEDING it, therefore following ITS form of worship and not the form of worship that is TRUE and UNDEFILED, therefore following Christ ONLY!
It STANDS in the way even if it is just a little bit and not even full-on WTBS style.

I just wanted to share what I have heard, but I understand completely that many will not agree. That is okay. As is always encouraged and I say the same....don't take my work for it. Go to the one that will reveal truth and cannot lie... our lord and master Jaheshua MischaJah

Love to you all
Justmom

I am in full agreement JustMom...and my heart rejoices at what Shelby has shared here. There is nothing to compare with TRUTH.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Ola my sister LOZ..

hugs

Love Justmom

But that is NOT the case at all, TRULY, dear Char (again, peace to you!). As I shared with someone before, Christ is not divided. The two CANNOT go to the same One... and receive differing answers. It CANNOT occur! One is true, one is false... or both are false. But both cannot be true... and have a different message.



This is true, but going to/hearing Christ is not that kind of gift, dear one. As you state:



It is...



This is not true, though. Prayer is something we do IN PRIVATE... between us and the FATHER (Matthew 6:6). We don't need to pray to Christ, however. We simply speak with and listen to the him (Acts 9:5, 10; 10:13-15, 19; Daniel 10:17). We pray to the MOST Holy One of Israel, dear one - with speak with Christ and he with us.

.

And yet, if you ask such ones, many would say, "I pray ALL the time!" or "I prayed and prayed"... and yet, they say they received nothing. Or at least, not what they prayed FOR. Yes? Why is that? Why do they "ask," "seek", and "knock", yet do not receive? Because they overlook what it is Christ said to ask FOR... to SEEK... to knock ON. And why.



Yes!



Yes!



(Smile) You confuse confidence... with faith, dear one. What you perceive as my own confidence is simply my ASSURED EXPECTATION of the thing hoped for (the truth of what my Lord says to me) based on the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION of the reality (of such truth)... though not beheld (I hear, although I may not SEE). If one KNOWS that what one hoped for (to be told the truth!) is what one will RECEIVE... because one has had receipt of such DEMONSTRATED, time and time... and time... again... then one CAN put faith that one will receive such AGAIN. Yes?



But see, I can only IMAGINE such a thing... because it cannot be TRUE. I mean, someone might come to YOU, or ME... or some other human person and receive such... but not to Christ, dear one. Why? Because his words, here, are TRUE:

"'I am calling to you, all people, my words are addressed to all humanity.
Simpletons, learn how to behave, fools, come to your senses.
Listen, I have something important to tell you, when I speak, my words are right.
My mouth proclaims the truth, for evil is abhorrent to my lips.
All the words from my mouth are upright, nothing false there, nothing crooked,
everything plain, if you can understand, [b]straight, if you have acquired knowledge" (Proverbs 8:4-9)

The THING is that most people (1) don't know WHO is speaking here, dear one, and (2) don't believe the TRUTH of what is being stated, regardless of "who" is stating it. Including Christ. They don't believe ANYONE speaks solely truth. Not EVEN Christ.



Yes, but so what? Many are convinced a great many things - that is not grounds to believe them, because THEY are convinced. One would... should... only believe IF one has received the same thing from the same Source... or can at least verify that it CAME from the Source stated. And there is a way to do that: TEST the "inspired" expression.



No, it can't. It ISN'T. But should we just throw it all out because we don't know WHO to believe? ("I don't know who to believe, so I won't believe anything!")? Or should we endeavor to find out if one IS speaking the truth... as to what they heard/know and the source? I mean, if we don't CARE, then perhaps not. But if we DO... then what? If one says, "Go, ask for yourself!"... what should you do? Just say, "Oh, please... there's no point because I KNOW no one will speak!" Or should one perhaps take a "leap" of faith... and ASK?



I disagree, dear Char. That YOU cannot check or verify something doesn't mean it cannot BE checked/verified. And if one does not want to check/verify pursuant to the MANNER in which such things must be checked/verified... can they truly complain that it cannot BE checked/verified? If a scientist said to me, "Hey, look in the microscope and you will SEE that blood has cells"... and I say "Oh, no, NO point in me even looking because I already KNOW blood doesn't have cells..." whose the ignorant one here? And I might even look and not see cells... because the viewer is out of focus or, more likely, MY eyes are not TRAINED to see them. Does that mean they are not there?



Perhaps. But I will share with you the question our Lord just asked me: did he not make such a claim, that he had direct communication with the Father? How was that received by others who felt he didn't? What about those who considered themselves "Abraham's seed" and so should know better? What about the man whose eyes our Lord himself opened, who TOLD those who asked of him who did it? How did such ones take it? That one says one thing and MANY others say the same (as to the source) but proclaim a different message makes the ONE unreliable??

If that's the case, then, dear one... we can count Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, the Prophets, the Apostles, Paul, many of disciples... and even Christ himself as "unreliable." Yes?



I am not so sure this is true, dear one. Few of these "seat themselves in the seat of Moses." Yet, there are GBs, and Popes, and Patriarchs, and priests, and others who exalt THEMSELVES among the "ordinary" folk, even making the claim to be led by Christ. Yet, their FRUITS say... what?



Cannot Christ?



Does not Christ?



It CAN be, yes. Or... it can be the truth. But one does not have to take another MAN'S word for it, does one? One can go... and ask... and listen... so as to hear the truth... FROM the Truth... oneself. Yes?

If what you say is true, dear Char... then you really should run from the "Papa" that so many serve. Because who is speaking to HIM? And how does one KNOW? Because other MEN say so? Or because GOD has said so? Has He said so to YOU? If so, by what means? Rather, through WHOM? And how did YOU hear that One?

I do not mean or wish to contend, dear one. I totally understand that some of what I share is hard for you to hear. It should be, coming from ME. If, however, you would ALLOW yourself to go to and hear the One whose mouth NEVER lies... you would know that what I share is not lies, either. Because they're not mine. If they were mine... you most probably WOULDN'T hear them... because I would have little or nothing to SAY. I am just not THAT loving, dear one. But... I love him. He gave his life for me... before I ever knew him... or knew that I would need him and why. He loved ME... first... and completely. How can I NOT love him?

And so, he is speaking... but few are listening. Because of reasoning such as you've shared here. Because that is what man has taught you, put into your mind and heart. Because THEY don't listen or hear... and so how can they teach YOU to listen or hear? No, rather, they "opine" with all manner of "worldly wisdom."

But I am not wordly wise, dear one, but merely a foolish thing. VERY foolish, given what I have received from others for my professions as to Christ and hearing him. Surely, you must see that. I mean, who in their UNfoolish mind would put themselves out there in such a way? Would share such things? Perhaps those who have entire religious institutions behind them... or vast amounts of followers, maybe. But who would SAY "Yes, I hear!" in light of arguments such as you've presented? Who would profess that it's not an abstract voice or "feeling" or some kind of "intuition," etc., but actually Christ himself?

Only someone who is crazy... or foolish. I'm not crazy, dear Char. Really. But I am a foolish thing, I openly admit. One must be... to put oneself out there as I have. But love can make one be foolish... and do foolish things... for the sake of the one he/she loves... can it not?

What you see with me, dear one, what you call "confidence," is nothing more than the "assured" expectation... that is my FAITH. And it comes off as assured... because I know the One who shares these things with me and am not ashamed of him... or what he shares. Even if it makes me appear foolish to others. Indeed, I expect it to have that affect on others. He said it would. And it often does. Moreso than any other affect, with most.

I hope this helps and, as always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

I agree. The two cannot go to the same one and receive different answers. But they can think that's what they're doing. They can think, each one, that they are talking to Christ, but with absolutely no objective certainty that that is what's happening. The encounter remains within their own head.

This is subjective experience. It may be truth, but equally well may be imagination, self-deception, illusion, delusion, whatever. Where one person on their own THINKS they have a definitive message, then that does not necessarily, of itself, have truth for anyone other than the person who asks. It may be true, but it may not. There is no way of knowing, other than the inner certainty of the one who asked. Others may have faith in that person and thus have faith that what they say is so, but that's all it is.

Now, if two, who in agreement with you and trusting your suggestions go, in their minds and hearts, to one whom they identify as Christ, all within their own individual mind and heart, and come back with the sure inner certainty that the message they have heard, in their mind and heart and even maybe head is indeed from Christ, but, crucially, each has heard differently on the same subject, what then? Who is to say which one has been really talking to Christ? Whose answer is genuinely from Him? In fact, is either?

Please note, I'm asking here. I'm not criticising, or decrying. Logically, where there is no external means of verification, the truthfulness of the message must at the very least be in doubt.

Where prayer is concerned, we're not actually differing, you and I, although you sounded as though you thought you were disagreeing with me. Any difference is pure semantics. Tomah-to, tom-ayto. You differentiate between talking and prayer. I, and those within the circles I move, and I am not including Jehovah's Witnesses in that, but am including my many friends who are variously Roman Catholic, Anglican, Salvation Army, Methodist, Congregationalist, Light and Life, Quaker, etc etc...in other words, all of my own acquaintance and direct knowledge and many not named above...everyone and every spiritual book and spiritual broadcasting use the terms "prayer" and "praying" and "talking to Christ" etc as synonymous. Same thing.

So where I use terms like prayer and praying, they are inclusive of many, many different forms of prayer that will include meditation, petition, arrow prayers for help, for understanding, as in this instance, intercession on behalf of others, the sick and bereaved and those suffering, etc etc etc. certainly including the kind of going to Christ and asking, as you describe. However, it's a very long step indeed between that and then giving others a definitive answer on any matter, whether of faith or teaching or anything else.

You mention the Pope. You call him the "Papa", we call him the Holy Father, yes, I will speak of him as we do even knowing that that very name will raise hackles of some here...but not all, I think. You compare his words with messages received from Christ by one who goes to him to knock and ask. Not so. A valid comparison can only be by comparing like with like. Your process...I do NOT mean you personally, Shelby, but the method of obtaining an authoritative answer that you describe....your process is nothing like anything the Pope says. The Pope calls himself "servant of the servants of Christ". As a leader, he is merely "primus inter pares", first among equals. As to infallibility, which you don't explicitly mention but which idea seems to be implicit at times when you write of the Pope, he is considered infallible only when pronouncing on a doctrine of faith, and only when speaking " ex cathedral", i.e. from the Chair of St Peter, as Peter's successor. (Yes, I know full well all the many malpractices within the Church in the Middle Ages, just as there were in medicine, scientific understanding, geographical understanding etc. At this moment in time and space we are only creatures of where we are, limited by circumstance.) there have been very, very few occasions when the Pope has made an infallible pronouncement. I have a feeling the last time was in 1951, but I am open to correction. He is subject to all manner of checks and balances, from the Congregation of Cardinals and also to the billions of people who comprise the Body of Christ here on earth. But, nevertheless, he is Peter's successor, as well as sharing, as we all do, human frailty.

I know someone in London who is, in her words, clairaudient. She's also, again in her own words, clairvoyant, but her ability (as she sees it) to hear is the most clearly defined. She has, in my presence, received messages supposedly from Christ that have every appearance of truth, even, in her case, with externally verifiable authenticity, thus containing facts of which she had absolutely no prior knowledge. There is every similarity there with the process you describe. She isn't a charlatan, and she doesn't take money. I consider her a friend, but do I believe that such messages are from Christ? No. I do not. Because He just doesn't work like that.

Loz wrote

Hmmmm. Of course. Naturally. However, I don't think Shelby herself would ever claim or has ever claimed that what she writes is TRUTH. Christ alone is the Way, the Truth and the Light, and she would be, and continually is, the first to say so.

No need to misunderstand or misapply. My spirit bears witness with the content of what Shelby has shared as being TRUTH, and yes, from the Truth, Christ.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Yes, I agree Loz, no misunderstanding at all. You're always very clear.

I agree... and disagree, dear one (the greatest of love and peace to you, my dear sister!). Here's why/how: I agree that they cannot go to the same One and receive different answers. And I agree that they can think that that's what they are doing, each one, talking to Christ. But there's a difference: while each one may think THEY are talking TO Christ... which of them readily says that Christ is literally speaking/talking back... to THEM? And not through the pages of the Bible... or via some kind of "sign," or through a "feeling," but that they literally HEAR him speak to them? Most won't, either because of fear... or because it isn't really the case. They will say "I BELIEVE" or "I THINK" Christ said, says, would say...

But let's say both do say that he speaks to them: do both offer to YOU to corroborate what they share with you in the SAME way? Directly from him? By means of going TO him and hearing him speak to YOU? If not, WHY not? I mean, if THEY can hear him... why can't YOU? And I don't mean that in the why CAN'T you (as in, perhaps there's some "block" related to you), but why can't YOU (as in, if such one CAN)?



Your word "absolutely" here is the issue. Because there IS a way to objectively ascertain... with certainty: ASK YOURSELF. Let him speak to YOU. Problem is, most don't want to DO that... or believe it can be DONE. So they say, "No, it must be done THIS way, otherwise there 'absolutely' is no way." Who are WE, though, to say to God/Christ HOW one can objectively ascertain what is happening with regard to them? Is that not THEIR right, not OURS?

And they DO say "how," BOTH of them. WE just don't put FAITH in what they say as to how. No, we would rather rely on men... who are yet fleshly, physical in ALL ways with NO holy spirit in them tell us "how". And THEIR how... is NO HOW.



Dear Char, I can tell you all day long that the encounter is NOT in my head... but in my blood, bones, breath, and more... is inside me AND outside of me... but I can't convince you of that. Others can corroborate that the same occurs for them, but they can't convince YOU of that. The ONLY thing that can convince you is (1) faith... and (2) experiencing it for yourself. Either will do, but without either, you cannot be convinced. But that's not on us, is it?



It is subjective to YOU... because you cannot (yet) SEE how it can be and is OBJECTIVE. But that's not on those who DO see that. That's merely something YOU have to overcome. The beginning of overcoming that obstacle is... faith.



I can accept that. But should the one for whom it IS truth deny that because (some) others can't grasp it? Or should they stand ON that truth... regardless of who hears/believes... or doesn't/refrains? Socrates gave his life for the truth HE heard... and his admission of Whom ("The God") he heard it from. As did Joan of Arc. And many, many others. Including Christ himself. Do we shrink back because others don't believe/get us? But what of the portion for cowards?



Not necessarily, no. On the other hand, it absolutely MAY have truth for others... perhaps even MANY others, just as well, yes? I mean, surely you believe that, in light of the papal hierarchy. Does not the Pope consider himself the Vicar of Peter? Says who? Peter? Christ? And does not the Pope issue opinions and edicts that MILLIONS follow? Yet, who says that what he issues is TRUTH? Because millions AGREE with it? On what basis? That HE said it? That it "sounds good/right? Or because holy spirit is bearing witness to THEM as to the truth of it?

C'mon, dear Char... you're trying to have it two ways and impose a double standard. Why?



Then a WHOLE lot of people out there might want to stop and consider why they agreed with the sitting of a certain Pope, past or present. Or why and on what basis they "agree" with the opinions and edicts passed down by such a one. They need to ask themselves: Is what he said true or not true? If true, how do I KNOW? If not, how can I FOLLOW?

Because according to your statement, the truth of it is ONLY knowable to the Pope who opined/passed the edict. Yes? Same for the WTBTS GB... leaders of the LDS, SDA, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Dalai Lama, etc. How does ANYONE know that ANY of what ANY of these and those like them say is TRUE? Yet, millions... follow THEIR lead...



If that is the case, the "others"... if they claim to be "christian"... are making a HUGE mistake. Because their faith isn't supposed to BE in earthling man... but in the One sent by God, His Son, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Because MANY false "christ" and false prophets have and WILL come forth, to mislead IF POSSIBLE... EVEN the chosen ones. Any of earthling who WANT others to have their faith in them... fall into this category. I don't care HOW they look, WHAT they do, WHO they are. Because they are leading men after THEMSELVES... and NOT to the One who was APPOINTED to lead us, Christ.



The operative words here are "whom they identify as Christ," dear Char. WE don't identify Christ - HE identifies himself. He isn't mute, dear one. He can and DOES speak. As so many do, I USED to think he was "Jesus." HE corrected me and told me who he is, what his name is, where he came from, where he is, etc. Unlike "Jesus," who man has created... I didn't "create" him.

So, to answer your question, if both TRULY want to the know the TRUTH... versus be "right"... then the two would consider together what they individually "heard"... both would TEST what they and the other heard... in the way CHRIST says... and not simply as we WISH to... and the one who was WRONG would openly admit that and accept the truth that the other shared. This, of course, implies that it is not BOTH who are wrong... which is very often the case, as BOTH could be going to "one whom THEY identify as Christ," but is not Christ at all.

The question is, though, ARE they both concerned with the TRUTH? Or is one... or perhaps both... concerned with being/looking/appearing/coming off as... right? What is "right"... is not always what is TRUE, dear one. Another thing I learned from my Lord.



My first answer would be Christ, himself. And so if, say, perhaps one doubts that what another shares WAS received from Christ, why not simply go TO Christ... and ASK if what was shared "originated" with him (and so, with God)?



The one he SAYS is, dear one.



In many cases, even most, no. Neither is genuinely from him. But in SOME cases, yes, one IS. And in some cases (i.e., where the information IS the same), both are.



I understand. And I get, now, that you're trying to "reason" this out. Which is what you SHOULD do. But just because there is no "external" means of verification does not mean there is NO means of verification, dear one. And that's is what stumbles SO many: they try to "verify" matters of the SPIRIT by means of the FLESH. It doesn't work that way, though.



But see, it is NOT semantics at all - NOT tomah-to, tom-ayto. It's po-TAY-to, tom-ayto. And while many tend to consider both a vegetable, one is actually a FRUIT. So, not REALLY the "same" thing, although many CHOOSE to consider them so.



Because they are different, dear one. I am not saying that as semantics. While both may be produce and from plants, one is a fruit... and the other is a vegetable. And so NOT the "same" thing.



I understand that you... and they... THINK it's the same thing. Because YOU consider it such. But the TRUTH... is that it is NOT. Just as the TRUTH is a tomato is NOT a vegetable. We, humans, though, tend to "go with the flow"... with the "popular" view, just because everyone else does/says. Doesn't make it TRUTH, though, dear one. Christ, on the other hand, sticks to truth. Always. Even if it's not understood... accepted... agreed with... known by... or popular with... others. And that is what he has taught ME to do.

And so, even if others don't understand, accept, agree with, know, or consider it popular, I cannot deny what I share about him... and/or what he says to me. Or that it is him saying it. I cannot. Because it would NOT be the truth, but a lie. And our Adversary is the "father" of the lie... I simply cannot give that one such a victory, not over ME. And to deny my Lord would be doing just that.



But, again, going to Christ and asking... is NOT prayer, dear Char. Prayer... belongs to JAH.



I don't receive what I do in response to prayer, dear one, which is why the distinction is made. Prayer is one way: TO God. It occurs when one approaches, through Christ, before the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and addresses Him. What I (and perhaps others) share... "definitively"... is what I receive FROM Christ. I do not pray TO him, though... nor does he pray to ME; we simply speak to one another. As I might with you, directly. And as with speaking with YOU... I don't have to go THROUGH anyone to speak with Christ: there is no "mediator" between him and me. There is none between him and ANY of mankind. HE, however, IS the mediator between me and God, between ALL mankind and God.

So, one CANNOT go directly to the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies; one MUST go THROUGH the HOLY One of Israel, the Holy Spirit and His Son, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). There is no other WAY to "enter" and be HEARD. One is stopped at the Door... and can only enter THROUGH the Door, so as to go in AND speak to God. If one does NOT go through the Door one either has NO entry... or breaks in.



I need to clarify: I don't call him "Papa", but used that term for those who DO call him such. I cannot call him "Holy Father", because (1) there is only ONE (Holy) Father, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies; and (2) my Lord said to not call anyone on earth such. So, I obey HIM... rather than follow the crowd that DOES call the Pope such.



Forgive me: I am not sure what you're saying/meaning here. If you are saying that he does not receive HIS messages from Christ, then I have to ask... what truly, then, is the POINT? Why would we want to receive from anyone ELSE? And are not those who follow him (the Pope) TRULY following HIM... and NOT following Christ? Why???? Can he save them/give them everlasting life? If not, why listen to/follow HIM? Why follow someone whose life and power is no greater than your own?



Then by what authority does he say what he says... TO the "servants of Christ"? His own? But how can a servant OF the servants wield authority OVER the servants... of ANOTHER? And who is his "master"? The "servants of Christ", since he is their "servant"? But the servants... are servants, themselves, and not masters. Who, though, is THEIR master? And who "gives" him the "messages" he gives to such servants? Whose messages ARE they? His? If so, who is he to give his OWN messages to ANOTHER'S servants? Are they Christ's messages? How do you KNOW?

What, truly, though, is the difference between the Pope's claim... and that of someone like me... other than the claim as to WHO it is who gives us what we share WITH such "servants of Christ"... and how many accept such from us as truth? If he makes the same claim as me (and others like me)... then how do YOU know he is telling you the truth? If he doesn't... then WHOSE message IS it... and WHY it is being "fed" to the servants of ANOTHER?

C'mon, dear Char... THINK: I make the same claim - that I am a SERVANT to the Household of God. In that light, I am a servant to the servants of Christ. However, they are not MY servants, but his... and they are not MY master: he is. How, though, can I give MY message to CHRIST'S servants? Would it not have to be HIS message... to HIS belongings... those of HIS household... and not MINE? And do I not share that truth, that they are NOT my messages but his? Dear Char, I tell you honestly - I do NOT know these things!! I am truly NOT that smart! They are NOT mine! I am honest, though. And I am not a coward. And I am not a man-pleaser. And I am not just a hearer, but a doer (well, as much as I can be). And so I tell you and others TRUTHFULLY from Whom I get what I share... and how. I ask/simply listen as he speaks.



But, dear one, how can that be... and be in union with Christ? How can one BE first... yet among equals? If one is FIRST... one is NOT equal, dear one. Because there IS no first... among EQUALS. Rather, as Christ SHOWED, if one is TRULY a servant... one must be LAST. Which is why HE emptied himself out and took a SLAVE'S form. So, HOW can one BE first... or even refer to oneself as such... as to "servants of Christ," in ANY regard? And... who makes such one "first"? Christ? Or a "college" of men who VOTE on the matter (so much for holy spirit!)... after which the ballots are burned, so that no one REALLY knows, do they, who THEY even voted for?



But on what is his "infallbility" based? What it is attributed to? Surely, HE is not perfect/infallible, yes? So what makes what he "pronounces" infallible? Because you and others AGREE with it? But could that not be said of the WTBTS GB... and even those like me... that it's "infallible" because "we agree"? Yet, you seem to have an issue with folks who agree with what is shared here. We give the glory to God and Christ and admit that what we know is by means of holy spirit. By what means does the Pope "know" what HE pronounces? If holy spirit... how do YOU know?



If that were the case, then denunciation of the practices of adulterous Israel, the corrupt priests, scribes, Pharisees, etc., by the Prophets, Apostles, even Christ himself... was moot, dear one. They weren't, though, because a LITTLE leaven... ferments the ENTIRE lump. So just the modern issue of obscuring criminal activity and crimes against children, even heinous and perverted crimes... "ferments" the entire institution. As Christ said, "You cannot put NEW wine... into OLD wineskins." Nor build new on a termite ridden structure. You have to tear it down... to the FOUNDATION. Christ... is the Foundation Cornerstone. So, one would have to go all the way back to HIM... and build from there.

Which you were invited to do, at one point.



But why take chances with "human frailty"... when you have Christ? Why not just lean upon/rely on HIM? Take HIS yoke and HIS load? You know why? Because somewhere, somehow, YOU bought into the LIE... that YOU are not "worthy"... and so must rely on someone ELSE to do it FOR you. But that is a lie, dear one. NO ONE is worthy - we are ALL sinners. But it is not worthiness that brings us to Christ; it is FAITH.

The issue isn't righteousness, dear Char - the issue is FAITH. The RIGHTEOUS... don't NEED a savior, do they? I mean, by means of their own righteousness... they can save themselves... right? However, even the FOREMOST sinner (think, David, Saul of Tarsus, Peter, and others)... can have righteousness ATTRIBUTED to them, yes... because of their FAITH? Faith, though... in WHOM? The Pope? The College of Cardinals? The Governing Body? Joel Osteen? Me? Other "christians"? Or... in Christ, and Christ alone?



Then I'm not sure what your "problem", if you indeed have one with her, is.



How do you KNOW that, dear Char? How do YOU know HOW he "works"? Has HE told you how he works? Or are you relying on what MEN (including women) have told you? If the latter... why? Why are you relying on such? And if you are, have you considered that POSSIBLY, such "men" are actually "shutting up the kingdom of the heavens"... before YOU? Because THEY are not going in (entering)... they do not permit YOU to go in (enter), either? Matthew 23:13

You should consider considering that, dear one. Truly.

Before I go, I do have to respond to what you commented to dear Loz (peace to you, dear one!), though. Your response was:



Can you explain the... mmmmmmmm... "skepticism" behind your comment? Dear 'Mom (peace to you, as well!) posted similarly. And others often offer their "Amen" to what I share. Yet, for some reason you seem to be unable to accept such from dear Loz. What IS that? Is there some reason you doubt her sincerity... or even the spirit by which she OFFERS her agreement? If so, should that not be between you and her, in the spirit of Matthew 18:15-18? If not, why continue to doubt her... and in the way you repeatedly do? I ask because I cannot ignore the sarcasm that is often apparent when you comment [as] to dear Loz.

For some reason you continually single her out. Perhaps you know dear Loz better than some of us do... and/or maybe she has rubbed you wrong in some way (although neither may be true), but what does that have to do with HER faith? Why do you continue to take issue so... and publicly? I am SO confused by this, considering how you "treat" ME... and others here. Can you explain, please? If so, thank you, in advance. If not, perhaps you might take a look at "how" you respond to her and see if you can "see" what I mean.



Then you haven't truly been paying attention, dear one. Because I have, on MANY occasions, here and elsewhere, stated that what I share IS the truth just as I received it FROM the Truth, my Lord and Master, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... who is the Son and Christ of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies. I make that statement... openly, honestly, and without reservation. For me to DENY it would be to deny both my Lord... and the Father who gave such things to HIM. Revelation 1:1



Yes! And it is from That One that I receive those things that I share here AS truth. It is NOT mine. But... it is the truth. And I have no qualms stating that, dear one.

Dear, dear Char... I hope that we both can continue to "grow" in our union with and knowing Christ and, through him, our union with and knowing God. Even better if we can continue that journey together. I recognize that we don't agree or see eye to eye on everything - I don't believe we have to. I will always speak truth with you... and I hope you will always be able to receive it. I understand, though, that there will be times... and things... that perhaps you won't be able to. You do not belong to ME, though; I am not your master... or anyone's master... but merely a servant. I am Christ's servant first, though... and so I must obey HIS voice and do HIS will first, always. I think you know that... and I am glad that you do.

I hope the above helps clarify that which needed to be and, again, the GREATEST of love and peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

A truly fascinating conversation going on here. On the one hand, Char and I have similar thoughts about things. In a very loose synopsis so far, it can be summarized like this:

Issue: 'There are those of us who haven't heard or yet learned to hear, so how do we know what one who claims to hear says it actually from Christ?'

Response: 'Keep asking, listen, and if you cannot hear, have faith.'


Again, very loose summary, but this is the takeaway I get.

One comment you made, Shelby, was interesting:


Reminds me of 1 John 4:1: "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world."

How does one go about "testing the inspired expressions"? I suspect you'll say, "just ask him", which is a valid response, but does bring us to a catch-22 for those of us who really want to hear, but as of yet, do not. There must be some other way to "test the inspired expressions", is there not?

Exactly that, leaving quietly! I hadn't realised you were thinking along the same lines.

But Shel, it seems to me, having read your long post, that you thought I was directly criticising you or contradicting your beliefs. Far from it! I wasn't doing that at all! I was merely presenting to you a logical difficulty, and it still exists. If two (or more), in all sincerity, believe within themselves that they go to Christ and receive an answer, but later it's found...or they find, (in discussion between themselves or with others, it makes no difference), that each is certain that they have received the answer they sought, then there is no external objective way of knowing which is correct if the criteria just involve going to Christ and asking.

Don't you see? I'm not at all, in any way at all, decrying your own faith, but if you say to everyone to do the same you are going to have as many different answers as there are grains of sand on the beach, and absolutely no safe criteria by which to discern and sort them. Surely, you must see that.

Shelby, this is nothing to do with attacking you. I am not doing that. I have great regard for you. And I respect your intelligence, which is why I've been convinced that you are not only a logical person but one who would not want blind adulation and sycophantic approval. I was not, in fact, writing about you. I wasn't raising objection to your own understandings. I was saying, hang on a minute, as a general principle this just isn't workable. In a particular instance, as with yourself, it's unusual yet credible. As a general rule of thumb, no, it cannot be, except individually from a person's deep self, individually, in their relationship with God. In other words, in prayer, and prayer can be so very many things, full of words or totally wordless, as in "I sit and look at Him and He looks at me."

Why do you Brecht to the term prayer when talking of the very process you describe? It's all prayer.

I don't know, either, why you dislike the word "absolutely". Maybe it's a particularly English idiom or way of speaking. After reading your post an hour or so ago I pondered on it while watching a bit of TV, several unrelated programmes including drama and general discussion. We British do use the word a great deal, often in emphasis, often to amplify meaning.

Shelby, you mistook what I wrote as lack of faith. You're wrong. I have great faith in God and it was my faith in Christ that finally would not allow me to go along any more with the Jehovah's Witness delusion. God said, in effect, to me, "Thus far, and no further." Your assumption there was mistaken, just as you were mistaken in sensing criticism from me. There was none. I was just saying, look, this cannot be, not quite like this.

Shelby, I'm not sure what you were getting out when you introduced potatoes into the tomato analogy! Yes, absolutely...that word again! ...absolutely! I'm sure you knew very well I was talking words and pronunciation, not vegetables and fruit! We could talk sidewalks and pavements, or biscuits and biscuits, very very different either side of the Atlantic!

You completely missed my point. There were things you hadn't understood about the RC Church and the Pope. I explained, quite dispassionately, how things actually are. Knowing full well that you always sign yourself as something like a servant of Christ, I pointed out, quite correctly, that the a pope is servant of the servants of Christ, and you don't like it, telling me I've bought into the big lie. No, you've just made a mistake. You got it wrong.

Shelby, I wasn't even writing against you! Why would I?

Before I finish, though, you brought up and apparently objected to my very brief response to Loz. If you re-read what I actually wrote, Shel, you'll surely see that any scepticism must be in the mind of whoever is reading. I don't know why you see it there. How would that be relevant, in context? It's very strange. It's not the first time you've said something like that. It happened once on the other forum.

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. If I disagree in a way that seems to matter, I say so. If what I say isn't understood, as happens sometimes, I try as hard as I can to explain. I certainly do not insinuate. So, I ask, how can you read into my few words in response to Loz anything other than a pleasant casual remark?

I believed I had the truth for 25 years. Turned out I was wrong.

I understand exactly what Chariklo is getting at.

Person A says "Christ speaks to me! He told me it was really him"

Person B says "Christ speaks to me! He told me it was really him"

Person C says "You both have schizophrenia!"

All three can be utterly convinced that they are correct.

Who is right? Who can prove that they are right?

Person A might in fact have Christ speaking to them.

Person B might in fact have Christ speaking to them.

Person C may be blinded by Satan or lacking the necessary faith to open his heart / mind.

In the same vein Person A might have been blinded by Satan (acting as an angel of light) into thinking they have Christ speaking them.

Person B might in fact have Christ speaking to them.

Person C remains convinced they both have schizophrenia.

There are quite a few combinations of what could be the reality - the truth - of what all three see / believe / hear yet how can any of them conclusively state they they are the ones that have it 'right' instead of the others? What can be agreed upon as definitive 'proof'? Because I'm sure all three will also have a different expectations.

Each can be completely convinced that the words they spoke are truth, and will live, die and fight for that conviction. One of them has to be wrong. Maybe two of them are wrong. Maybe all three are wrong! Surely a loving God / lord would not hold it against them. We are just humans. We can only do the best we can with the brains we have. All three people in the example above have made decisions and chosen a life course to the best of their knowledge based on the evidence that they have seen.

_________________
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr Seuss

Sign. Please forgive me... and peace to you all! I did my "ususal" response to dear LQ and planned to do so for dear Char each (peace to you, both, and NO, dear Char... I did NOT assume you to be contending but only posting as many others who don't yet understand do!)... and then my Internet "crashed." Ticked me OFF!

I don't want to think my provider (Comcast) is playing games... but I DO think they might be. I called the other day and they "offered" to come out... but at $30-$60. That's not much, no, but after I unplugged and replugged/reset the entire system... all was well. Except at about the same time every day since my system goes "down."

Could it be Comcast wants me to "upgrade"? One might think so with all of the mail/email I am receiving from them "begging" me to "upgrade."

Anyway... I'm a bit tired... and VERY warm... so I will try and repost later/tomorrow.

Again, peace to you and my apologies!

A slave of Christ,

SA, off to tend to a hot flash... ick, yuck, sigh...

I am certain that Shelby will respond to you, and perhaps even before I am finished, but I respond as well. (I think it has been written out in other threads as well... somewhere, lol)

Testing the Inspired Expression

This is in order of... truth, strength, validity.

a) Go to Christ and ask Him. HE is the Truth and Word of God. Then listen and believe what you hear from him.

(Yes, some are learning this faith still, and that faith might be tiny, tiny, tiny... so as to hear tiny, tiny, tiny... at least at first... but keep asking, and keep knocking... and yes, you knew that would be the answer; and yes people can both abuse and mistake what they think they hear... but that should have nothing to do with YOU, if YOU are following Christ alone)

b) Love.

Test against love.

If the content of an inspired expression is not from love (and yes we can misunderstand and put our own spin on something heard and so think it is not from love), then it is not from God. If it is from love, but you have not heard it for yourself from Christ... then perhaps you can just set it aside for some future date when you can revisit it, or ask and hear from Him. If I don't hear anything about something that someone else has shared, then I just set it aside.

Sometimes we do not understand love either, but the more you come to know Christ, the more He teaches you about what love truly IS.

(And I do not mean an abuse of love as some are wont to do... as in, hey it really is loving to wipe out 99% of the earth's population... including some of the loved ones of those who are in the 1%... OR this abuse of love... it is loving to put people in hell to be tortured for all eternity, it is loving because it is just... who are you to think that you know love and God does not?!)

c) Against scripture and against what is written about Christ

This is the last test that I know of, and of course what is written should be tested against love and Christ also (at the very least against what Christ is written to have said and taught over what anyone else is written to have said and taught)... but for those who might need to see for a while still, then one can at least test what one thinks they know about a particular issue or expression... against what is written.

I say 'thinks they know' because often the meaning of something written completely escapes us in light of what we have been taught or choose to see that is true. As well, sometimes we have completely missed something that does 'speak' as to the issue we are testing against, but we have overlooked that verse. Many people come out of the wts wondering how in the world they missed 'this or that' verse. Happens to us all if we are looking through the lens that others give us... rather than through Christ.

But those are some quick tests: Christ; Love; scripture and what is written about Christ.


Peace and love to you all (and so sorry Shelby, now that I see what you just posted. I know i hate losing a post like that)

tammy

[/quote]


Hello everyone,

Such a long post and great input, thank you ALL!

But with all that is mentioned here, these few simple statements make it simple for me to understand how I can personally test what I hear from CHRIST.
Not just by his words to me personally, but it is "written"in the bible for those that trust HIS words there as well.

How much clearer can our Lords words be when he tells us plainly , Not to be calling ANYONE on earth Father ( holy) as you have one in the heavens?

How does one expect to be heard from the most holy one of Israel, our Lord and saviors FATHER when you call someone on earth already by this term ?

Imagine the disrespect to our Heavenly Father in the heavens?
is he NOT ENOUGH for us ?

How does one even think they are going through the " door", that being CHRIST...to the Father, when the one they are calling holy father exists on earth and not in heaven?

How and why does one " need" to refer to one as a holy father and leader of billions spiritually when he is mortal, sinful as we are, needing a ransom, mediating between god and man, not allowing THEM to hear their true master Christ. If one did say ANY and ALL could hear the voice of the " true shepherd " ...the one the sheep actually belong to and died FOR,...where would he then stand?

Surely not in between as a mediator any more.

Which is how and why when I hear what I hear from my Lords voice, he SHOWS me how there is really no difference at all between the WTBS and RCC when it comes to this huge lie and deception.

I understand that many may not agree, I can only also share what my Lords voice continually reminds me as to why so many choose a human leader and mediator and holy father and governing body ....

OVER HIM!

Love to you all this beautiful day
Love Justmom