xjwsforChrist

Recently, several of you have started saying just Christ. Check back! (No, Tammy, I'm not going to do so.) months ago the definite article was always there, unless the word Christ was being used as the subject of a verb.

Yes, of course he is the Messiah.

All of that is absolutely true and right, Kassad.

What is not right is the extraordinary and bizarre doctrine that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, which is a way out variation very rarely found indeed, held to by an inner circle here as if it were something that Jesus said, when he most certainly did not. It's a denial of the Third Person of the Trinity, and so blasphemous.

The whole point of nomenclature is the fundamental wrongness of concept.

Two things have been characterising posts from the tiny inner group recently. The increasingly frequent of the assertions on Jesus being the same Spirit that he speaks of, using the pronoun "he", and who he says the Father will send once he is Ascended. If he had been talking about himself, it'd be obvious.

If you were going away on a train and after you'd gone someone else would be coming, you'd use the words Jesus did. If you were going away and coming back in due course, you wouldn't. That's just one very big point.

Well said.

I wish, truly, that it could be as you are saying here.

If we could discuss matters, test them against Christ - the Light/the Truth - then we might be able to have an actual discussion, and the truth would shine freely.

It is not a matter of who is better than who... as Paul said, there is no one good, not one.
It IS a matter of following the Truth, and rejecting what is false.

There is one here who would have me deny my Lord, and that He speaks, and deny all that He has spoken to me. There is one who would have me deny Him, but accept the RCC as truth over Him.

I cannot do any of those things.

And unfortunately, we are not ALL of Christ. Not everyone who says, 'lord, lord' belongs to Him.

Does that mean that Christ does not have people in various denominations, including the WTS? Of course not. If He had no one within, He would be calling no one out. None of us would know HIm, because most everyone here were part of the wts... WHEN... we heard Him calling. Including Char.


As long as what religion and men teach - whether that be the wts or the RCC or anyone else - is in opposition to what Christ teaches, and as long as there are people who are entrenched and loyal to those religions and those men.... then there will be conflicts such as what we have here.


There needn't be such. We CAN look to Christ FIRST and FOREMOST, and test what religion and men say against what Christ has said, and still says if you have the faith to hear Him.

But it is every man's choice what they do.


THIS place, however, is about faith in the Spirit. To come here and try to get people to deny Him, and that faith... well, that doesn't make much sense to me.





And Char... you have known from the start that the people here did NOT accept the trinity. No one here has changed anything that they believe, except some to come closer to Christ, and begin hearing Him, and listening to Him... GROWING in their faith. So for you to take exception now... and call it blasphemy... that is YOU changing your tune, not any of us.


Again, I ask you... what in the world is wrong with saying THE Christ, or Christ? I have ALWAYS done so here, and I did so even before this forum. But I am not holding my breath that you will answer this question either.


Peace,
tammy

I mean, it's not like I/we made it up:

"I will request the Father and He will give you a [paraclete] to be with you forever, the Spirit of the Truth..." - JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), as recorded at John 14:16, 17

"I am... the Truth..." - JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), as recorded at John 14:6

"“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him." - JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), as recorded at John 14:23

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if [b]the Spirit of him who raised [Jesus] from the dead is living in you[/b], he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of [b]his Spirit who lives in you[/b]." - Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus), Apostle to the Nations, as recorded at Romans 8:9-11

"The Lord is the Spirit." Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus), Apostle to the Nations, as recorded at 2 Corinthians 3:17

"We have a paraclete (helper/advocate/comforter) with the Father... [Jesus] Christ"... - John, one of the original 12 Apostles and recipient/writer of the Revelation received from Christ...


I don't really understand all of the... mmmmmm... "nervousness"... that some have surrounding discussion of these issues. Discussion does not equate to judgment or hatred but simply varying expressions of disagreement. What troubles me MOST... is that many seem to be more concerned with keeping the peace... than stating the truth, even if it's the truth about Christ, the Holy Spirit... and holy spirit. What troubles me second is that it seems that others are more than able (and welcome) to disagree with US... even ridicule... but disagreeing with others is not to be done BY us, even when their beliefs have absolutely NO substantiation... in Christ, holy spirit, the Bible, etc.

It's not as if the discussion is between christians and Jews, or christians and Muslims (where there are fundamental differences for the very BASIS of the respective beliefs)... but among those who profess to be of the same Body... yet, believe/teach entirely different doctrines... including that Peter was the one impaled for us (or at least, that we should look to him as if he were).

I do get that perhaps none of THIS... truth (or the lack of it) is the concern of ALL. So be it. I have learned, however, that it is of GREAT concern to the MOST HOLY ONE of Israel, JAH of Armies... and to His Son and Christ, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Because it is lies, falsehoods, half- and partial truths that has often led Israel astray in the first place ("You HEARD it was said that... but I say to you...").

So, each one must decide for himself/herself. For me (and my household), I have come WAY too far and learned WAY too much... and heard and seen far, far too many wonderful things... to concern myself with what other humans thinks of me... and my penchant to defend not only my faith... but my Lord and why I HAVE faith in him. I can choose to keep following HIM... and sharing what HE gives me to share... even if it is painful to others' ears, psyches, spirits, and sensitivities... or I can seek to please those who need to have their ears "tickled," because the words are just too much for them to bear.

I choose my Lord, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). If that choice stumbles another... then it must be. But such ones should make NO mistake: it will not be ME who causes them to stumble... but their own choice TO stumble... OVER... the ROCK/Stone... OF stumbling. I know, they will convince themselves otherwise, but that won't matter: truth... is truth. No matter how WE choose to "see" things.

Perhaps if (certain) folks stop looking at ME... and start looking at Christ (the REAL Christ!)... to see and ACCEPT him... as he TRULY is... and not as THEY will or as the construct "Jesus" created by those who wish to mislead, if possible, EVEN the chosen ones... no stumbling will occur at all. Perhaps.

I have learned from MY Lord, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... that stumbling only occurs when one isn't watching where they step...can't see WHERE to step... or isn't following the right Guide. If one is following HIM... the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit... there is no stumbling. At least, not over HIM... which is what he referred to when he warned AGAINST stumbling others - stumbling others OVER him, he the Stone OF Stumbling.

See HIM... and you won't strike your foot... OR be led into a "hole" by others who WANT to stumble you... and stumble. Walk by SIGHT... and you will continue blind... and you WILL stumble/BE stumbled.

Peace to you ALL!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

Shelby, please can you give us a textual Biblical reference for your new appellation of Jesus being the "Stone of Stumbling"?

Quoting from Isaiah 8 v 14 Paul says in Romans 9:



Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Or Luke 20:17, and Matthew 21: 42-44

Peace,
tammy

Here is how various translations render 1 Peter 2:8:

New International Version
and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

New Living Translation
And, "He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they do not obey God's word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.

English Standard Version
and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

New American Standard Bible
and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

King James Bible
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and A stone to stumble over, and a rock to trip over. They stumble because they disobey the message; they were destined for this.

International Standard Version
a stone they stumble over and a rock they trip on." They keep on stumbling because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

NET Bible
and a stumbling-stone and a rock to trip over. They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and they stumble on it, in that they do not obey the word, for they are appointed to this.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
a stone that people trip over, a large rock that people find offensive." The people tripped over the word because they refused to believe it. Therefore, this is how they ended up.

King James 2000 Bible
And, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them who stumble at the word, being disobedient: to which also they were appointed.

American King James Version
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

American Standard Version
and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Douay-Rheims BibleAnd a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set.

Darby Bible Translation
and a stone of stumbling and rock of offence; who stumble at the word, being disobedient to which also they have been appointed.

English Revised Version
and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Webster's Bible Translation
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them who stumble at the word, being disobedient: to which also they were appointed.

Weymouth New Testament
and "a Stone for the foot to strike against, and a Rock to stumble over." Their foot strikes against it because they are disobedient to God's Message, and to this they were appointed.

World English Bible
and, "a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." For they stumble at the word, being disobedient, to which also they were appointed.

Young's Literal Translation
and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence -- who are stumbling at the word, being unbelieving, -- to which also they were set;

More importantly is how at least one is missing Who the "Rock" is, dear Armand (peace to you!). Thankfully, these renderings show who PETER knew that Rock to be. No matter what some of us here might think. But, ah, well... what can you do... or say... or post?

"Hearing... they hear in vain... seeing, they see in vain..."

As Christ said, it's not for everyone to get. Unfortunately, folks seem to want to blame us, although HE said it. Earthling man... go figure.

But thank you for posting those... and to you, as well, dear Loz and tec!

Peace to you ALL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Yet, I don't understand how one can ask: "[C]an you give us a textual Biblical reference for your new appellation of Jesus being the "Stone of Stumbling"?"

There are "textual Biblical reference[s]" that state this, as I and others have cited, and it's NOT a "new appellation" as it's been in the Bible for approximately two millennia. Two millennia is not "new."

I am made to wonder if people who claim to know their Bible actually know their Bible at all.

--Armand

I know, luv (peace!). None so blind...

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Few British churchgoers actually do know their bibles Armand, sad to say. Except for perhaps the 'born again' group. They know the bits that they chant repetitively in church services, or the ones commonly used by their vicars and priests, or their catechisms, but otherwise they have very little knowledge or grasp of the scriptures. In this the JWs actually do put them to shame. Ok that organisation might misconstrue some scripture for their own ends (as others do too) but at least JWs know their bible to be able to discuss and debate the scriptures, albeit from a blinkered viewpoint.


Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Loz, the thing is, most British churchgoers know their Bible very well, especially the older ones who, like me, had Scripture lessons every day in school.

But not to the chapter-and-verse, "learn and practise how to brainwash other people" level of Jehovah's Witnesses. Certainly not. You're absolutely right there.

No, they really don't Char. I had scripture lessons at school too. Lots of bible stories covered, very little bible itself. I'm afraid your lack of such knowledge is very plain to see. Not knowing the scriptures though doesn't mean we can deny them or insult those who know them better. Sometimes we have to swallow our pride.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"