xjwsforChrist

heya guys,

just want to ask what do you think about the dormition of Mary - the tradition early christians believe (records started showing up only in the 5th century) where Mary upon dying was taken up bodily to heaven three days after by Christ. This was not recorded in the scriptures but it appears to have been common knowledge to those early christians.

Now, I don't know if I should believe it or not, but one part of my head says its not within the realm of impossibility since we already believed in the resurrection of Christ. There were also report of accounts in the OT of Enoch, Moses, Elijah being "taken" by God and no body or tombs were found for them. Interestingly, there are also no tombs or relics attributed to Mary. Apostles like Paul and Peter by tradition was buried in Rome, Mark in Egypt, and several others. But for Mary, there seems to be no mention of any.

But another part in my head says that this is most probably another invention as its not found in the scriptures, but then again, there are many events, works of the Spirit (or evil sprits?) from then on that have not been recorded in writing but were passed on orally? How can one really sift through truth and invention?

Now I am thinking, what maybe are the good or bad effects of believing the early resurrection of Mary. one possible case is that this is just an invention to attract pagan believers who believe a goddess "Queen of Heaven". But on the otherhand it could be true. Mary has sacrificed a lot in her earthly life and one of the most humblest and quiet characters in the Bible, obeying the will of God - its not impossible that Christ would give her that honor...
some also say that He remained a virgin after giving birth to Christ and the brothers and sisters mentioned in the Bible were from Joseph and not hers, otherwise Christ would not have given her care to John when He was on the cross

On one hand there is a passage in the gospel like this:

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

On the other hand there are also passages coming from Jesus and Paul that describes death as sleeping.

I want to be as open-minded as possible bros and sis, that's why I am also asking what you think...it is really hard to separate what is true and what is not IMO, as faith demands believing something of which you have no solid evidence..oftentimes it is really beyond the realm of reason

Hi Kassad!


If she was going to be taken up three days later, then why would Christ have given her care to another in the first place?

There is also no reason to believe that Mary and Joseph did not have an actual, consummated marriage. The passage in the bible states the opposite, actually, regardless of whether one thinks 'brothers' refers to cousins. It says that Joseph did not have union with Mary until after she gave birth. Meaning that he DID have union with her after she gave birth.

"When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name 'Jesus'." Matt 1:24,25


However, regardless of what one believes... our focus should be upon Christ. And if one wants to know about Mary (though why would it matter, I personally am not sure, when it is Christ to whom we must look, and Christ from whom we receive life), one could always ask Him. Not a criticism against you for wondering or asking, Kassad, truly... just my genuine thoughts. Seems like it would be a distraction FROM Christ, is all.


Peace to you!!
tammy

thanks Tec...

From tradition, I think Mary was taken up after she finally died three days later (of course there is no solid proof of this)

One reason why this maybe important is that it keeps reminding us of how God through his Son reached down to humanity and its sins, and, on the other hand if Mary's resurrection is true, then the new creation indeed has began and it gives us hope of someday also becoming like her and the other saints finally made new in the image of God, resurrected bodily as Christ has been resurrected.

but yes, i agree, one real danger of this is that our view can be distracted instead of concentrating our gaze in Christ.. it may also border on idolatry!

in case you're wondering why i'm asking these, i've just been exploring the orthodox church's beliefs lately, i've been fascinated by them because of the recent events in Syria/middle east, as they have been subject to persecutions as of late

I understand... I have not kept track of what is happening in Syria... well, some things, of course... but not all. I do know, just from Shelby's trip to Ethiopia and what she saw from the Orthodox church, that they venerate Mary.


But we do already have the hope of the resurrection without the idea that Mary was resurrected at once... simply based on the resurrection of Christ, and His promise, also from God.

Peace,
tammy

Hello Kassad...

My understanding is that if Mary had been resurrected to heaven, this would be proof (by her resurrection thereby opening the way ) that the first resurrection has already taken place.
And aren't we told that the first resurrection takes place AFTER Christs return ( which is still future) ?

And that it is of those that are alive when he returns ( change from physical to spirit/ putting off flesh)
And then those that belong to him that are dead in the graves ( they are resurrected and given a spirit body/ a white robe) and TOGETHER... Meet The Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

This would be the first resurrection.

Then the bible speaks of a second one. At the end of the millennium when hades is emptied.
Revelation 20:12-15


So for me, I cannot see where Mary is anywhere except under the alter awaiting a resurrection as belonging to CHRIST when he returns.
Even if there are no records of a grave or body as with Enoch and Moses and Elijah, they can be considered transferred and taken and resting/ sleeping in death under the alter as well awaiting the promised first
Resurrection.

Just wanted to share
Love Justmom

thanks justmom for reminding 1 Thessalonians 4

Your so welcome. And this truly is good news. And why Jah is called a god of the living not of the dead.
In that even if one that belongs to Chirst dies in the flesh, it truly is only a resting/ sleeping awaiting this first/ better resurrection. It is why they are referred to as in John 6: 53:53,54 as having " life within your self."

It is what those like Mary, Enoch, Moses, Elijah knew of. Their faith in the one that would not leave them asleep in death.

This hope was taken away for us that were in The WTBS by separating the great crowd from the 144,000 and telling them that they cannot receive this annointing with spirit as well.
I rejoiced when our Lord explained to me this understanding of Ephesians 2:12-22.


Eph 2:12
That at one time we were alienated and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and had no hope and were without god.

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Eph 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Eph 2:16
and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Eph 2:17
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Eph 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Eph 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Eph 2:21
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Eph 2:22
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

I hope this encourages you the way it did me.
And knowing that it is free to those that are asking, seeking and knocking. It is CHRIST who gives it. Therefore, no man can give or take this away!

Love to you
Justmom.

Morning and peace to you all!

I'm not sure, but it seems like perhaps you're confusing the two, resurrection and the changing, dear 'Kassad (peace to you, both!), because the latter is what occurred with Enoch and Elijah. Which Mary COULD have experienced... had she not died. But your comment says the belief is that she DID die... and was raised up 3 days later... which would be a resurrection, as dear 'Mom (peace, luv!) pointed out. And if THAT occurred, surely John would have written about it, as he would have still been alive at the time, even if none of the others were. If not him, then perhaps her sons, James and/or Jude, would have... but there is nothing.

Even so, Mary was not given greater position than the apostles... and none of them have been resurrected, yet (or at least, no one's making THAT claim). Indeed, on at least two occasions, our Lord implied that she wasn't as great as some wanted to make her out to be:

"Now [Jesus’] mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”

"He replied, “My[i] mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice].” Luke 8:19-21

And...

"As [Jesus] was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

He replied, “Blessed [i]rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27, 28

Not saying she wasn't great, just not AS great, again, as some wanted to make her OUT to be, THEN. And, apparently, because they don't listen to HIM... but to others/themselves... some want to make her out to be NOW.

Dear tec's (peace, luv!) comment as to Mary's care being entrusted to Lazarus makes sense (why be concerned about three more days of care?) but you don't state WHEN such ones say she died: soon after he entrusted her care to Lazarus? Or many years later, which would make his entrusting of her care reasonable?

If folks had said she was CHANGED... so as to never SEE death... then we could not dispute that; because that did occur for some (a few). To say that she DIED and was taken up by Christ three days later, however, is another thing. Because, again, it means she was resurrected.

And if THAT was the case, we would have had a witness to that, one way or another: either someone would have disputed Paul's words that the first resurrection had not yet occurred but would occur at the same time as those living would be changed ("Oh, now, wait, Paul... what about Mary, who was raised up three days after SHE died?!")... or John would have mentioned it, versus seeing those "under the altar" (and so, still sleeping [in death]).

Since the belief originated in the 5th century... and we KNOW how "superstitious" and all folks were around that time and for a long time after... I think WE should keep a "sound" mind and not buy into what is pretty obviously a teaching of FALSE christs and FALSE prophets, and so designed to "mislead, if POSSIBLE, EVEN the chosen ones." And, apparently, such has worked, because the veneration of Mary is tantamount with some and has permeated sometimes even to above Christ himself.

There are no secrets with Christ, however, with regard to his Body. None at all. Because as HE said:

"You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." John 15:14, 15

So he kept NOTHING from them when he was with them of those things they could bear. He ALSO said, as to MORE things, that the Father would send him AGAIN, in the SPIRIT (as the HOLY Spirit)... to lead us into ALL truth. This teaching, however, about Mary being resurrected three days after death... is from men. NOT the Spirit.

And so because of this... I personally can't receive it as truth. I don't think you can, either, which is why you're questioning it. If the Spirit bore witness with YOUR spirit that it was TRUE... you wouldn't have even had to ask but simply shared the truth of it with the rest of us ("Hey, dear ones, I received this...").

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

You said early Christians believed that. Since this is not supported from what the Bible writes, as the other members explained, can you provide proof? Where are the written documents?

Thanks Shelby for the reminder...


Anomos,
There are MANY versions of the story and these are among them: http://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/texts/dormindex.htm... I'm not insisting that this is true (it actually appears as invention) and I'm not even defending the doctrine. I just want to find out its origins why its practiced among Orthodox Christians. I'm fascinated by them as for two millennium of Christianity, they are the ones who mostly stayed on the sidelines with the minimal transgressions or scandals, killings, power (if any) if you compare them to the history of its "brother" RCC, or the more "enlightened" reformation churches. I'm trying to see the fruit of the tree in terms of the group. Even now, they oppose homosexuality in the church to the dismay of popular opinion, when many other reformed churches (mostly they have the "right theology" - e.g. not believing in Mary, but they are also getting lost in another way as they invent new understanding as they proceed, on the same path that their older counterparts did), even some RCC churches, are starting to embrace it. Note, I am speaking in a position of much ignorance here...so please do correct me..

Wink at dear Kassad.

The greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Kassad what are you talking about? Orthodox religion are also blood guilty. Maybe less that the Catholics. But 'pagans' were not persecuted? The majority didn't side with the government against the communists in the greek civil war? Didn't they support the greek dictatorship of 1967-1974?

And you do not need to do too much research about homosexuality. Scandals are not lacking and just use your ears and listen to the tone of the voice of many Orthodox archbishops and tell me if they do not sound 100% gay. Plus they are forbidden to get married like the Catholics.

And where do you think did Islam come from? There would be no Islam today if the emperors didn't back it so they could limit the power of the orthodox church. Poor emperor Julian became known as 'Julian the Apostate'...

Hey Anomos, as I've said, I'm also not well versed in these, but thanks for mentioning some of the Orthodox Church's issues! they're definitely worth looking into

As for marriage, I think they are allowed to marry, even when they enter into priesthood, but they aren't allowed to remarry afterwards.

Clergy is allowed to marry but not the archbishops. Scandals with these, plain priests, monks and nuns abound and sometimes (unless journalists are bribed to coverup...) make it into the media. It is not a recent trend. You can hear about their immoral acts in every village and town you visit.