xjwsforChrist

JAMESTHOMAS SAID

In our hearts we know that the true and genuine Source of all universes is infinite and unending (the Alpha and Omega). No thing can exist outside of IT...for there is no other power to make anything else exist.

Our limited human mind can not grasp infinity. So it weaves fictional stories about a tiny and limited god that lives separately from all universes and existence. The mind gives this facade a name that shrinks and separates it from all else...e.g.: Here is Jesus, all the rest of the universe is not Jesus = my god is NOT infinite but rather just a tiny part, a piece within infinity.

Ahhh, yes, how comforting. Now my tiny mind has something so infinitesimal as to fit into it's cramped little spaces. A tiny thing that I can believe in and bow to.

We have engraved false images in our minds.

So, yes, there are those who are not fooled by the minds jabberings words and imagery that pigeon holes our true and infinite SOURCE... those which can be readily be defined as atheists. We have no religion. No deities. No belief system. We only sense what is greater, and greater still. That which is always more and never less. Little we share about it..as it is beyond what the limited mind can comprehend and speak of.

That said. Our minds engraven images, beliefs, and religions are totally meaningless. Rather it is the love in our hearts towards our pure, infinite and unspeakable Source that is important.

We are all one in GOD...simply because there is no where else to be within infinity.

BURNS SAID



And yet even a skilled monkey needs some protrusion to grip on the sheer face of the Ineffable. We ourselves are unable to grasp It in all of its indescribable glory.

And so we have our representations. Symbols, thoughts, metaphors. Just as the word "bird" cannot encapsulate the essence of a wonderful winged thing, so our own conceptions of something far greater. Your post makes them appear to be as the Golden Calf. True idol worship.

You yourself speak of true religion. You've pierced the veil.

But I will not deny humans something small to hold on to.
_________________
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness cannot overcome it.

AGUEST SAID




This is so true, dear JT (greetings, peace, and GREAT to "see" you, dear one!).



I don't know if I agree with this, however. SOME limited minds cannot grasp infinity... most often because the thoughts of such minds are fleshly. The flesh is infinite, as it the world it comes from. The spirit, however, CAN be infinite, as it the world IT comes from and so once one has learned to TRANSCEND the flesh... so as to "realize" the reality, that there IS something that had no beginning and has no end... which as you said is infinite, one can indeed also grasp infinity. One can even hope to be a... mmmmm... more intricate part of it. We are all SOME part of it; however, depending upon our choices, perhaps only a TEMPORARY part of it. The potential, however, is to be a bigger... and more permenant... part of it. Actually, I should say Him (although I don't necessarily mean a male entity; rather, I mean a complete entity, male/female... both... and neither... but just complete, not "needing" or "lacking" anything.



Some minds, perhaps. I have come to understand that as to the TRUE God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, NOTHING exists separately from Him, literally, although MUCH is separate from Him technically. When some is without love, without truth, without mercy, without justice, without hope, without peace, without faith... it is without and therefore separate from God. As for universes, the currently one we exist in, while outside of the one He is in, is still inside of Him. Because it was all created and so in exists IN... the womb of the Woman... which womb is within the "female" that IS Him.



Again, some minds, yes. But those are, again, minds that are still "upon things upon the earth," etc. Fleshly. Those that walk by SIGHT. Which is why they need a "Jesus," which, as I've often shared here, is a construct, not a reality.



Unlike beasts, who we often consider inferior to us, that is often the pursuit of man, yes. This is because in trying to understand what we cannot on our own, we create constructs such as religion and their icons (and I must also include science in here, because it does the same thing) to try and understand. In doing so, rather than raising ourselves US... we try and bring God "down." To our level, based on our level of understanding. If our level is very low, "He" ends up being a plethora of gods, for everything imaginable. If it's a little higher, He might be one god, but with limitations, or with "mysteries" that we can't explain (because we don't understand). A little higher and we can "explain" Him. Higher, and nature "explains" Him. Higher... and science debunks Him.

The TRUTH, however, is that there is only one Way to know Him... and only One who can explain Him.



Oh, we've gone farther than that! We've taken those images and made them a reality! Whether they are primitive pot-bellied fish gods or perceive "super heroes", even sports figures. Whatever it is we worship, that is our respective god. And all of the false ones are nothing more than constructs of our minds... based on our desires. What's IN us.

Except One. The TRUE One. Which I do understand can be difficult to grasp, given all of the FALSE ones. But truth is truth. Even if no one believes it. And there is one True God. Even if all of humanity turned to atheism and came to the collective conclusion that there is no God... they would all be liars.



It is GOOD that such are not so fooled; however, it is not so good that in rejecting such "mind jabbering words and imagery" they completely reject TRUTH. Not ALL is mind jabbering or imagery, dear one. OUR task is not to reject all, but to sift through all of the FALSE imagery, etc., and see the REALITY. Because He IS there; what often keeps us from SEEING Him... is what's in US. Either we want to see what we WANT to see, which is NOT the reality... and so we don't see... or we don't want to see anything. In which case, we see nothing. If, however, we truly want to see TRUTH... we will see it. Indeed, you can't miss it!

Unfortunately, we all tend to fool OURSELVES as to what we truly want... or don't want... to see. The wonderful (or perhaps not so wonderful, depending on the circumstances) thing about the Source, dear one... is that we DO receive... what we ASK for and truly WANT. If we WANT to see a false image... we will. If we WANT to see nothing... that is what we will see. If we WANT to see Him, however, then we SHOW that by DOING it in the way HE says: through the Image He gave us so AS to see him.

Of course, if we DISTORT that image, make "it" look and appear as WE wish it (well, him) to... then that's what we'll see. It is will quite difficult, though, to see that image (him) as HE truly is. Because we won't ALLOW it. If it (he) doesn't look as WE "need" him to... then we won't see him - we WILL turn away. Reject the image. Make other images that are more pleasing to us... and CALL them him. But... they are not the truth.

And so, anyone who says they want to "see God"... but keeps looking at their own images (or those contrived by others)... rather than looking at the One He gave us to look at... AS THAT ONE TRULY IS... and not as how our own hearts and spirits can "handle" it... they are lying. They may not KNOW they're lying, true... but they are. To Him and, sadly, to themselves.



That which you SENSE is not out of reach or incomprehensible. If, however, you choose to reject the means by which you can see Him... because accepting that means translates to accepting a deity/belief system... which you choose to reject... then all you will ever do IS sense. But you will never SEE. I can understand that there are those who can live with such a choice. I could not. And, praise JAH, I don't have to.



Yes, but how much more meaningful that love, if one KNOWS... what... or rather WHO... that Source truly IS! One no longer has to love a CONCEPT... but a REALITY! I chose that... and have not been disappointed! Not at ALL!



YES! But KNOWING "God"... one can only imagine! Or... can one? I have learned, one CAN know Him. Truly.

I love you, dear JT, because you are a fellow human. But that love is merely a concept. Sure, I can bear in out by helping you if/when I can. But were I to know you personally, how much greater COULD that love be?

Something to think upon is all.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama (who, again, is glad to see you post! Thank you!)

JAMESTHOMAS SAID



Sadly, all through human history there have been militant fanatics...both religious and political who have expressed the same vain and boastful type of rhetoric.

Who are you, dear Shelby, to tell me or anyone that they will never “SEE” God, unless they follow the tiny narrow little path that you blaze??? What super power do you have that lets you know what I or anyone sees???

Millions of people can SEE, can know God in a deeply intimate and all embracing way simply by smelling a rose or feeling the tiny embrace of wind on their face or looking into the bottomless gaze of a baby. These men, women and children have no need for a foolish mind generated belief system with a special magic name as a password to enter. Their hearts are open...and so they see, they know... Period.

God IS INFINITE! And so are the ways to see and sense and understand. Why?
Because this is the way of true unconditional LOVE.

AGUEST SAID



Perhaps, dear JT (again, peace to you!), although I think the religious ones have far, far, outnumbered the political ones. Although, some did/do play on both teams - LOLOLOL! But what I shared wasn't rhetoric, truly. I absolutely understand why you (and others) might consider it such, though: those fanatics you mention haven't made it easy for truth to be shared.



I am absolutely no one, dear JT... and you know that as much as I do. I am not saying you have to believe me or receive/accept what I've shared. I shared it because it is the truth. Now, I could go, "Hey, not my problem what dear JT and others believe," and that would be true, too. Or would it? The TRUTH is that it would only be PARTLY true: what you believe is not my problem. What you are given to make the CHOICE as to what believe... is.

Because love, especially the kind you're discussing here, dictates it. There is no love in having no choice. Love, therefore, says you speak/share the truth with your fellowman, always, so that he HAS a choice (except, of course, where it isn't necessary to speak/share at all). Love also says that you love your fellowman/brother regardless of what he believes/does not believe. That he does not HAVE to agree with you... but if you say you love HIM... and you have/know the truth about a matter... how can you say you love him yet keep it from him?

Especially if you're doing so (keeping it from him) because you don't wish to inconvenience yourself... or cause yourself some measure of discomfort. Where is the love in that? Love does not look out for its own interest... but that of the other.

Love is also loyal, is it not? So that if, for example, someone told me something about you that I KNEW was untrue... or didn't speak up when someone else said something untrue about you... where would MY love for you be if I failed to show that loyalty? Shouldn't I say, "Well, now, wait a minute So-and-So... I KNOW dear JT... and what you're saying is untrue/inaccurate/false, etc.?" Or should I just let folks go off thinking false things about you? If so, can I truly say I love you? Truly??



(Smile) I have no super power, dear one, and you surely know this. Unless you call truth a superpower (and some might).


I am not so sure that's accurate but I think I understand what you mean. I am not speaking as to the abstract, though, but the reality.



Okay, dear JT, I can receive that. I don't agree with it because it is abstract and not actual... and I am speaking of the actual, but again, I think I know what you mean, so I'm cool with your position.



Again, I can accept that you believe that. But again, that is the abstract. Perhaps the following will help you "see" what I mean:

Awhile ago a dear poster on another site died. I did not know him personally, but thought I knew... mmmmmmm... enough about him (through posts and a couple of PMs) to offer a "memorial" of sorts. My INTENTIONS were good. Unfortunately, some that DID know him... much more than I did and certainly more intimately... took issue with me because they felt that I didn't know him well ENOUGH to take the... mmmmmm... "initiative" that I did. Now, one would think that a memorial from ANYONE, perhaps even an enemy... would be a GOOD thing, yes, so long as it honors the deceased?

I learned that that was not the case, that MANY were of the opinion that I had NO right to say ANYTHING about the dear person... because I didn't KNOW him... and certainly not well enough (at least for them). And it's true, I didn't. I mean, can you REALLY "know" someone you've never really met? Internet personalities are often not the reality and even when they are, many are "different" online than they are in real life.

What, though, if I had never even seen what the dear one posted, or received ANY communication from them, personally? To ME... not what is pretty general to all? Perhaps I only "knew" him based on what OTHERS said about him. Can I TRULY say I knew that person... even if I have a plethora of emails/PMs/posts from him/her?

Okay so maybe I can "relate" to him... based on what he posts/PMs... or even to what others say about him, how he made THEM "feel." Or how they "often" thought of him "when." Maybe they related, too, or he made ME feel the same way. But... does that translate to me knowing him?

I mean, I think it's wonderful how many DO love God (and Christ). I don't knock that at ALL... and folks can say all manner of good things as to Him/them. I just offer a bit more ACCURACY about them and their personalities, etc., as such has been revealed to me BY them, rather than get mad at 'em and say "YOU have NO right to speak about Him!! YOU don't know Him like I do... and He doesn't even like YOU!". No, I mean, ALL praise is due to the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies...

I only offer what I do in my having come to know them. Which is NOT an exclusive privilege, I promise you! ANYONE can do the exact same thing.
IF, however, someone says, "Well, HOW do YOU know/how did YOU get in to know?!" and I say, "Well, I just went through that Door there, yeah, right there... it's standing wide open... and you can go through (him), too!" and they say, "NO! I am NOT going through no Door - that Door or ANY Door... I think all Doors are melarkey!"... what am I to do? Deny the Door exists because they don't want to access/go through it?

Dear JT, be an atheist. By all means, do YOU. I do not judge you or bear you ANY illwill. But SURELY you realize that this is not just a forum for exJWs... but exJWs... FOR Christ... yes? In that light, what kind of a response/comments did you THINK you were going to receive here? Perhaps one that said, "Oh, yes, JT... NO need for a Door, because there is no Door!"? Here, dear one?

Unlike atheists who oppose believers... and atheist sites that oppose what we believe, dear one, we do not oppose you or what you believe. We BELIEVE you have EVERY right to believe what you WISH to. But you dear ones REALLY have to allow yourselves to understand that you won't be able to post atheistic beliefs here without risk of response by SOMEONE (and most assuredly me!). I mean, that would not be logical/rational, given the title... and purpose... of site, right?

For those of us for whom the site was constructed... the Body of Christ... the Door not only exists, not only is real... but is KING. You DO know that, right? So, please don't expect silence... or acquiescence... dear one, when you post something that dismisses... or attempts to negate... him. It will HAVE to be addressed. But always... always... in love.

As someone once wrote, "So because I tell you the truth I'm no longer your friend?" That is absolutely not the case here. You are not judged or not "wanted." You... and all who post here are among friends... to the extent you ALLOW us to be such. Just friends, however, who perhaps disagree with your assessment of "God."

I hope that helps, truly.

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, the Door,

Shellama

CHAPPY SAID


JT, this is the first I've seen the post that started this thread (I think they are older).

Did you write that? It's quite profound.

It seems to express more of a deistic view rather than an atheistic view. Am I misunderstanding the message in there?

Either way, it's a very interesting bit of writing. In the scale of my atheism, a deistic view is much more difficult to argue and in my opinion plays out much like atheism in day to day life.

I think it has something to do with us being hardwired to be dualists.

AGUEST SAID

Good morning dear Chaps... and peace to you! I realize you've addressed dear JT (peace to you, as well!), but I found your comments quite interesting and have some comments/questions, if I may.



Since he undertook to explain "God" I think dear JT is trying to help us understand the "epistemology" of his atheism:




Of course, I don't presume that dear JT WAS coming from such a POV, so I hope he will clarify. But it does seem to explain his position, for me at least. Since he did so undertake to explain "God," however, it opened the way for countering by anyone who believes differently.



Ahhhh, so you mean a belief in a deity/higher power/source but living without the literal spiritual... or perhaps, for some, "religious"... connotation? Which helps me to believe his IS from an epistological POV, because that foundation of that form of atheism is agnosticism. If that's true with dear JT, then things are more clear. I realize that not all atheists/agnostics are fully in one camp or the other, that (quite understandably) there is some overlap - some atheists are agnostic and some agnostics are atheists - where neither is the extreme.

I think it has something to do with us being hardwired to be dualists.

Now THAT is an interesting comment, given what dualism usually means (the belief that there both physical AND spiritual). Since it has various connotations, can you clarify how you mean it here, please? Because if you mean physical/spiritual... your comment as to "hardwired" tends to suggest not only the presence of physical and spirit, but the reason we should be intrigued by and search for answers as to BOTH and not just one.

Which I think the extreme poles of science and religion tend to do: fall well out into their respective corners and search only there, indeed only WANTING to search there... without truly allowing themselves to "hear"... and seek... with regard to the other. Indeed, each often considering the other an enemy of some sort.

I'm not sure if I'm saying that clearly so let me know if I've confused you.

Peace!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Dear Chappy,

Nothing I say here comes from anywhere other than my heart...that said, the words you see posted here are only very feeble interpretations of what is deeply felt....We can never really describe the smell of a rose..how more so the sense of God?

That said, I am an atheist, a none believer in every mind made representation of God...simply because my deepest and most intimate sense of God is that our Source is Infinite. And so any and all mind generated images, stories, holy personages and deities and images only subtract (in our little minds) from That which can not be subtracted from. ..I'm doing my best to put an indescribable sense into words here...so if done well.. it amounts to failure.

Of course the mind knows only duality, so it does the best it can to understand what it can not, by creating engraven images within its imagination to represent a “thing” it calls “God”. Just Like it does a tree. It can'not even begin to know what the vibrant majestic life of what we call a “tree” really IS, so it paints and weaves a tiny facsimile within its limited neurons. A wimpy little fake.

That's OK, the minds limitations regarding a tree are not going to corrupt our sense of self, and existence. However, when we use the same drastically limited mental technique to shrink our genuine Source to a flaccid little make-believe deity...then this can not help but drastically influence our life and all those we meet.

For example...there has been untold suffering and killing throughout human history because of the minds extremely foolish and dangerous idea of a “God”, a “God” that has murdered countless men, women and children..in the name of “righteousness”. Clearly the popular mind cartoons of a “God” has all but ruined humanity...so much so that in the end we may destroy ourselves...as we parrot a foolish murderous concept of "God".

My simple message is that whatever the mind presents as fact...regarding anything, is BS....especially when it comes to our genuine Source!

Do you want to know God? Then, forget the mind. Forget duality. And instead be still and rest in the inner most warm and indescribable sense and fount of Being and Life that is non-other than our Beloved unending Source.

If words come to mind to somehow describe it, then that's not IT. Be still. Be silent.

So Shelby...all I have ever said is that God is Infinite and so all inclusive and loving beyond our minds drastically limited imagination, and so open to all life – UNCONDITIONALLY.

You seem to want to add caveats to that and somehow minimize and restrict what is actually infinite to something finite and limited. You somehow desire to reduce what is wide beyond belief, down to a small narrow little magic path..a fairy tell where our minds needs to jump through hoops of holy names, beliefs and anthropomorphic deities. You have done the same now for years and years. No need to stop now, sweetheart. It's just part of your unique and lovely personality. I love you still.

In the end you know that there is no limitation, no boarder, fence or restriction to God ...other than our own mind generated fallacies. Indeed it is only our mind stories that separate us from the Divine.

We are only a thought away from God. We all intrinsically know this.


One more thing.

Dear Shelby, if you choose to respond to this post...please don't cut it apart into sentences. For christ's sake, I just wrote it and have no idea what I just said, other than: God is INFINITE.

Do you, Shelby, have a heartfelt sense of this?..or not?

If you do then...Hallelujah! We agree!

Nothing else matters.

Let's move on.

Hugs and kisses,

AGUEST SAID



In the spirit of what you are trying to share, dear JT (peace to you, dear one!)... yes, I agree! And so, you're right: nothing else matters and we can move on, hallelujah and PRAISE JAH! LOLOLOL!

Peace, dear one... and hugs and kisses right back atcha!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

When all our mountains of words, thoughts, dogma's, religions, ideas and genuflections, regarding life, nature, universe, and God are no more, are gone and absent...what remains?

The foundational unending, untouchable Truth.

That, which has always been and always will be. That, which is the welcoming and loving all inclusive space/openness that gives rise to all phenomenal existence of time and space.

So, if we let go, still the mind, and silently fall into what the first sentence above points to....

Let us all meet there.

But that is exactly my point, dear JT (peace to you and glad you made it to the new house!): one CAN see, touch, hear, and KNOW the "foundational unending, untouchable Truth." By seeing, touching, hearing, and knowing its IMAGE: Christ. Who is the Truth (John 14:6) and the Foundation Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19). While what you speak of is infinite, having no beginning or end... what you speak of has a REFLECTION. By means of which we CAN see, touch, hear... and know it (Him).

In THIS world, there are all kinds of elements that, although we cannot see them, we have EVIDENCE of them. "Traces." In our soil, our water, the atmosphere. Some of these elements existed LONG before the earth was formed. Even as far back as the "Big Bang." Many have only been "discovered" in the past 100 or so years. But they were ALWAYS there! WE... just didn't know of/see them. Because our limited flesh could not discern them, at least not without special tools/instruments... or certain hypotheses and/or math equations that say they MUST be there, etc. Then, one day we "discover" them and go, "Oooh, look at THAT; looks what's there!" It never crosses our minds that perhaps others "discovered" these same things long, long before we ever did modernly.

When WE become "indefinitely lasting", LIKE Him... THEN we can see, touch, hear, and know HIM, directly. As ALL spirit beings can: without instruments, tools (which allow us to realize empirically representations of such things that we cannot with our mere flesh). Until then, we are limited in such and can only see, touch, hear, and know Him partially. By means of the REPRESENTATION He has given us... for which FAITH is our "tool/instrument."

You could KNOW this truth that I share with you here through your OWN words, if not through HIS, if you only LISTEN to them. They speak TRUTH, which you know; however, they speak OF the Truth, which you won't ALLOW yourself to know.

I am not limiting God, dear one. YOU... are limiting YOURSELF. As most of mankind does. Himself... and others... by denying the DOOR. ACKNOWLEDGE the Door, however... and it... HE... becomes "open" to you, too! Is he a human, like us? By no means! He is a REFLECTION of the SOURCE, that which came OUT of the Source and by means of which, through, and FOR... everything that is in existence came to be!

KISS the SON, dear JT, and let the Truth be revealed to you!

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

bump to keep from losing it...

I have had similar discussions with "skeptic" friends.
That I am limiting myself to One belief, that the potential for man is unlimited, that the whole notion of "fallen man" is just religion trying to "contain and control" man and that to be truly free we must accept so forth and so much, etc, etc.

IMO, the notion of "fallen" is like the notion of "broken", that there is something wrong with US at a core level and, IMO, history and the world teaches us that this is so.

Long before I believes in "original sin" or man's "fallen nature" I knew that there was something wrong with man, that we KNOW right and do WRONG, that we are selfish, even though we know it is better for us NOT to be.
That we hate even though we KNOW it is better to love, that we hold a grudge even though we want to be forgiven.

I have found that, in accepting that I am "broken and fallen" from the way God intended that I am accepting that I need help from Him do be all that He KNOWS I can be.
I have found that in doing this, in letting Our Lord come into my life and take me by the hand and as I listen to His voice, I have became so much better than I thought I could be, so much better than I imagined I could be AND YET I realize that I am NOT doing this "myself" for "myself", but that HE is doing it for ME because of His LOVE for Me, for ALL of Us.
As I realize that, this opened the universe to possibilities that I never even began to conceive in dream, much less reality.

Our Lord is the KEY, the GATE to the unlimited, He is the foundation to ALL.

My faith frees me, it does not limit me.

Lovely post Paul.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

See, this is why... and how... you dear folks make me cry sometimes (peace to you, dear, dear Paul!). As you all can guess, I am not a very emotional person. TRUTH, however, is one thing that "moves" me to great emotion, even tears sometimes. Truth like our dear P's comment here.

Amen, dear brother... amen.

Peace to you and yours!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama