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Atheism->Deism->Theism
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Author:  sabastious [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Atheism->Deism->Theism
SABASTIOUS SAID

I have noticed that there is a lot of angst directed towards believers and non believers so I thought I would make a thread explaining how it all works from my own perspective. The reality is that neither believers nor unbelievers are right or wrong, they simply are, if that makes sense. To better understand the perspective ideologies I have constructed a map so to speak of how it all works.

The fact is that we are ALL products of our environment, we CANNOT escape this at first, but we can eventually, but first we have to ACCEPT that we were first a product of our environment. Only after this acceptance process can you start to make choices on your own as opposed to having your life decisions and ideologies chosen by some mysterious external force of nature.

A good example would be a Jehovah's Witness child. This child will grow up believing things that are extremely far fetched and not easy to explain to other people. Instead of straining their brain on confusing doctrine they will simply accept what they are told. Eventually the child will develop a sense of identity apart from what they have been taught, however, and this is when they will have to make a decision that will alter the entire course of their life. The Watchtower understands that their members will eventually come to a crossroad in their life and they hope that they will have done "enough" to control that decision and keep their subject within their environment. That crossroad is unbelief.

At this point of realizing one's own identity the JW child will develop incentive to remove beliefs from their psyche that they discover were never theirs to start with. The best course of action upon approaching this life crossroad is to completely clean one's slate. However, this is not the way most JW children do it. Most of them only clean their slate partially because of emotional attachment to certain sets of doctrine. This is why the Watchtower doctrine plays so heavy on everlasting life on a paradise earth because home is where the heart is. They are hoping that the child will make the choice to remain emotionally invested when such is the worst thing to do at the crossroad of personal identification. The best thing for the child to do is to clean their mental slate completely even of ideas they are emotionally attached to. This will make them an unbeliever which serves as a perfect foundation for creating one's own identity.

Unbelief is the first step to true belief. If one never makes this venture then one's belief is not founded on anything substiantial. Unbelief provides the energy to fill the void that it naturally creates, it opens up the world where it otherwise was not available. This is an empowering process and sets the stage for the rest of the choices that follow it. Some set up camp within this neutral mental state because it's so powerful and provides the energy for one to absorb knowledge like a spunge because their preconceived ideas have been cast aside. This is where atheism comes from. Some generally decide to mold their identify from unbelief which comes with a wide range of flavors and progress for mankind in general. However there is a next step that requires yet another mental hurdle and that is what I call Deism.

Deism, like unbelief, is an acceptance process. Albert Einstein discovered many truths about the universe through his scientific mind, but he didn't call life bad, he called life beautiful, another word that could be used is "good." Unbelief directs you to this crossroad where you have yet another choice. The choice is how to approach life as a whole, do you consider it good or bad? If you consider it good you are embarking upon a spiritual journey and you are leaving the position of unbelief. Many take a neutral stance on the good and bad of life and this will keep them within the realm of unbelief or indifference to life in general. The people who take a stance that life is inherently good are implying that there is some sort of directed purpose to life and therefore they become generalized deists.

The beautiful thing about deists is that they don't give up on their unbelief, they just have developed a new perspective on it. They see it as a tool now instead of the foundation that it once was. They see purpose in the world and not only seek to understand that purpose, but also create connections with others who have also accepted that life has some form of purpose or direction. Many set up camp in this stage because they are able to see the immense value in such a stance as it is the best of both worlds of unbelief and belief. However, there is yet another crossroad that deism will bring you to and that's when one asks the question, "Do I have a specific purpose?" Because before they were accepting of a purpose in general, but that leads to the question of what the purpose of specific individuals are. This is what theistic frameworks attempt to answer.

Going from deism to theism is an arduous and dangerous venture. Unbelief and deism in comparison are friendly and non confrontational ideologies. Theism on the other hand is the assertion that the purpose of existence directly applies to the individual instead of the whole of humanity and beyond. This directly threatens anyone who decided to set up camp in the stages of unbelief and deism. To those people the one's moving forward are selfish because they see that all is answered in the first two stages and that the third stage is a delusion making it counterproductive. That's why the debate between these two ideologies is so fierce.

Often times people will make the jump to theism because of a personal experience which is subject to confirmation bias. This is a dangerous crossroad and it can fling you back into the chaotic ways of before you cleaned your slate in the first place. You can end up back where you started which means that you will be inching toward unbelief yet again which can feel like you are going in circles. That's why upon embarking on a theistic journey you must accept the fact that you are probably going to have to clean the slate once again when new information comes to the table. It's also important to keep in mind that the vast majority of theistic frameworks are based in emotional attachment to doctrine which is what you purposefully directed yourself away from in the first place. That's why it's dangerous because you are exposing yourself to a vulnerability that you know has previously been exploited. In the end theism is a highly volatile theory and requires extreme care, yet in no way is it obsolete, it's just widely misused because in the end we all want to feel good about what we are doing, but such should not be used as a foundation for life choices.

The search for God is eternal, so when you stop searching for Him because you like some theistic framework, you have just jumped into a vicious cycle that has been going on for millenia, so it's important to know exactly what you are doing or else you won't have a chance to retain personal identity, which is the only thing we really have.

-Sab
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
YPPUPLLEH SAID

What are your thoughts on reincarnation?
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
PSACRAMENTO SAID

Searching for God is only PART of it, some would say the "easy part", it is what happens when you find God that is the eye opener for some.
Never will your life change as much as when you truly find God.
Your life will NEVER be the same.
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Sabastios, very thought out and eloquent post.

I agree with much of what you had to say. Then, near the very end you said: "...personal identity, which is the only thing we really have". Here, you lost it and didn't see the most important piece of the picture.

Personal-identity, is a continually changing and evolving patchwork made up of countless feelings, thoughts, memories, stories, etc., that are experienced and then created within the mind.

What is there that is silent, still and unmoving that sees all that? What has nothing what-so-ever to do with "personal identity"? What is far more intimate than the stories of personal identity that our minds weave? What is the one foundational thing in which we all share and have?

This, that you left out of your story of things, is the key to everything.

If you want to give the mind a further futile exercise in titles and such, you might throw it the fish of Pantheism. Though, that's not it.
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
SABASTIOUS SAID

Hello James, thanks for your post it's very appreciated. To me personal identity is all I have, so really, I am speaking from my own perspective and projecting onto others when I say "it's the only thing we have.". That's the Christian in me showing, always wanting to project wisdom onto others whether they like it or not. Consider part of the 38th Hexagram of Opposition:

Quote:
Quote:
Above, fire; below. The lake.
The image of OPPOSITION.
Thus amid all fellowship
The superior man retains his individuality.

The two elements, fire and water, never mingle but even when in contact
retain their own natures. So the sutured man is never led into baseness or vulgarity through intercourse or community of interests with persons of another sort; regardless of all commingling, he will always preserve his individuality.



Wilhelm uses the word "Commingling" which means to mix together or to blend. This process of retaining one's "nature" is a very explosive experience and even when among fellowship you must constantly be vigilant in order to maintain identity.

When you say that personal identity is a continually evolving thing I tend to agree with you, but I do not think that that somehow minimizes the priority and general value of personal identity. Take sports teams for example. Often when one of them has a collapse it will be explained to have happened because the team "lost their identity" or "never found their identity." No matter how much experience and talent we accumulate we are NOT the sum of it, we are MORE than the sum of our parts which is what makes us made in the Image of God. This means that when put up against what is the opposite of God, or evil, we act just as fire does with water and retain identity under all circumstances, even if that means the end such as water dousing fire. Such is the story of religious martyrdom is it not? People willing to die for what they hold to be true, just and peaceable. Without the retention of personal identity we are whisked away into someone else's fantasy.

-Sab
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
GLADIATOR SAID

Sabastious - That is an interesting opening post that covers many bases. I think that JamesThomas’ take on identity ticks the box for me.

Is there any purpose to life? Humans need purpose to keep ego alive. In truth, the only reality is the present moment. There is nowhere to go. We are conscious of only a fragment of reality for a moment in time, before our bodies return to cosmic dust and we are once again part of the silent reality of a never ending moment that simply is.
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
SABASTIOUS SAID

Quote:
Quote:
Is there any purpose to life? Humans need purpose to keep ego alive. In truth, the only reality is the present moment. There is nowhere to go. We are conscious of only a fragment of reality for a moment in time, before our bodies return to cosmic dust and we are once again part of the silent reality of a never ending moment that simply is.



Hello gladiator. Your views are always welcomed and appreciated. I have to disagree that humans need purpose to fulfill one's ego. While that CAN be the case it's not the only way life works. Purpose is what transcends the human species beyond it's own capacity which pushes them towards God and eternity. Without purpose there is no progression, only stillness. Stillness is a very important state, but to stay there forever would be like water without current, which just collects bacteria and becomes a bog.

-Sab
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
WHEELOCKSLATIN SAID

deep thoughts above
well said all

my girlfriend being the philosophy major
with the Einstein IQ that got her through neuropsychology
i myself am the lesser half, the thug
with my copy of Voltaire unopened on the shelf
and blue murder always on my mind

yet your thoughts on the clean slate
still ring through
able to be heard and understood
by this knuckle-dragging beast looking at me in the mirror

if it was within my power
i'd go the way of V for Vendetta
i'd drag every adult human being into a tiny prison cell
and whip their minds and bodies
until nothing was left but their core nature and bruised skin
for MY benefit?
no, for theirs

i need THEM to see who they really are
as individuals forcibly separated from societal obligations
from group values
as creatures stripped of all but their true
remaining
individual
self

no longer a fish moving as part of a school
subject to the whims of whatever idiot on the left or right edge
got spooked by a flash of light in the water
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
DING SAID

In the OP, Sab wrote: "The reality is that neither believers nor unbelievers are right or wrong, they simply are, if that makes sense."

Actually, that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Either God exists or He does not. Our opinions on this subject may accord with reality or they may not. They may accord with reality in some aspects but not others. For example, I may be right in thinking that God exists but have a totally distorted view of what God is like.

I agree that our opinions are shaped by what we have been taught and that they often change over time, but that only changes our perception of reality, not the underlying reality itself.

To the extent that my beliefs accord with reality, I am right. To the extent that they do not accord with reality, I am wrong.
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
SABASTIOUS SAID

Quote:
Quote:
i'd go the way of V for Vendetta


Wheelockslatin that was a great post! Remember in the movie how V taught Evey how to "live without fear"? That's what your post reminds me of.

Quote:
Quote:
To the extent that my beliefs accord with reality, I am right. To the extent that they do not accord with reality, I am wrong.


This is not an incorrect way to live one's life, but in regards to believers and unbelievers there is only a quest that is neither right nor wrong. However, identifying right and wrong in the here and now is what we were made to do, but our foundations of Right and Wrong should always be questionable otherwise we sink into corruption.

-Sab
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
LEANN SAID


Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:01 am Post subject:
I really enjoyed your post.. I think you explain the process very well.

I think when it comes to identity ... we are dealing with both things. Growth and realizing what is there in the first place.

For example, you have a seed, and it grows into a sapling and then into a tree. It doesnt turn into a flower but it does evolve, grow and change. We can change and shape ourselves, like an art form but we must still recognize the value of what we are.
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
JAMES THOMAS SAID

Sabastious,

First forgive me for I have never been able to say what I feel. The more I try, the more I make a mess of it. That said:

You said: "we are MORE than the sum of our parts which is what makes us made in the Image of God." That is the message I too was trying to get across. But perhaps in a way that is just a bit more radical than what is normally suggested or expressed.

Forget the ever changing "personal identity" which is weaved by the mind. No matter how important it may appear, it is just electrochemical energy creating a facade of reality, or a false sense of "self". It all amounts to so much BS. Though it may appear to be the most paramount reality in our lives, there is no there, there. It's all an illusion.

"Every ones world picture is and always remains a construct of his mind, and cannot be proved to have any other existence." -- Erwin Schrödinger

What isn't an illusion?

The ONE and only thing we can be certain of is that we are conscious. The silent consciousness which is our most intimate sense of "self" is that which gives life to all life. For without it there would be nothing. ZERO. Nada.

It is this unspeakable purity of consciousness which we all share that is what makes us all exist in the image of GOD. Not the ever-changing phantasmical story of person identity. But rather THAT which looks through our eyes this moment and in which all the story of the false "self" unfolds and dies. IT silently watches and is untouched by birth and death...and everything in between. It, is the alpha and omega.

Do we want to know God? Then be still. Be still of all personal identity and story of a tiny little "self". And go deep into the silent and pure consciousness that pervades our entire being. HERE is GOD. Right here. Right now. Always and forever.

I hope that made some iota of sense. Because words always fail; as they were made to describe what seems to be, not what IS.

Love to you all,

j
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Please note that I quoted Erwin Schrödinger, as he is one of the early Quantum Physicist whose writings first helped me out of the slump of being a disfellowshipped JW who hated all reference to a god.

It was Quantum Physics that really first touched my soul and spoke of a God infinitely close and infinitely beyond all religious beliefs and dogma. It is these great scientists who expressed to me the illusion of the material world and the reality of beauty and power incomprehensible yet closer than close.

Here are a couple more notable quotes from the great science gurus:

"Matter is not made of matter." -- Hans-Peter Dürr

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Albert Einstein

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science." - Albert Einstein

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." -- Max Planck
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
SABASTIOUS SAID

James thanks for the beautiful post. I really get what you are saying. I have been contemplating a lot about an "objective" perspective on all life recently. The question I asked myself id, "If there was someone who watched my life from start until now like a movie, how would they feel about me? What would they have to say?" That question makes me go through my childhood and adulthood and after I consider it all I see that the person watching would love me, in fact it would love everybody. That stillness, watching, loving. However it does cry too and there is much to weep about. I think the purpose to life is to keep a smile on God's face.

-Sab
Author:  xjwsforchrist [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Atheism->Deism->Theism
JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Indeed, "It would love everybody".

I have been reading about near-death-experiences. Especially those written about by doctors and scientists who have been studying them for many, many years. In fact there is a thread here: Dr. Jeff Long and NDE's. Dr. Long has studied over 3000 NDE's. He has found that no matter what country the person is from, or what religion, or non-religion (atheist), they all come back speaking of an unimaginable pure, nonjudgmental, totally loving, all pervasive and embracing Consciousness. It didn't matter how mean or nasty the person may have been previous. It is this truly unconditional love, that these people are filled with, that changes their lives forever after the event. They become a far more loving and nonjudgmental person themselves. For they know now that "evil" exists only in the minds and hearts of man, and not in our Source. The true Source of us all. The true Source of everything.

Wash away all that our minds and hearts believe ourselves to be, and we are ONE with our Source. God's purity is our purity, as we are one with that which has no beginning or end. There is no place, outside of what is Infinite...or rather what is INFINITY Itself.

These are only words. But the reality they point to resides always in the silent unmoving purity of Consciousness that looks out our eyes even now.

I discovered this myself, during an episode of intense and dark, murderous hatred (stronger and more vile than anything I had ever felt before). This blood-dripping hatred was directed at god (or to my mental image of a god) for all the pain and ugliness humanity and nature has ever suffered. As I kneeled in the middle of my bed, slamming my fists on the bed and crying and screaming at the top of my lungs wishing with all my might that god would come and stand before me so I could kill him...something happened.

The consciousness which I knew so well, the very same one that has looked through these eyes my whole life...seemed to expand. It took in the whole scene of the continued screaming and hatred, and it did so in what I can only say is the most indescribable nonjudgmental purity. It wasn't like a blinding flash of light. In fact it was very gentle and subtle. But unmistakable. To this day, I can only say that what witnessed the most hate filled vile moment of my life, was truly Holy. Pure beyond what our minds can image as "pure". And it was, as I said, the very same consciousness that has always been with me. And most certainly, I am no different than anyone else...except perhaps that I am one of the worlds biggest bone headed fools.
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