xjwsforChrist

I'm reading Daniel 2 carefully and can only count four kingdoms.
vs. 38: 1st kingdom = Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel says: "you yourself are the head of gold", not Babylon is the head of gold)
vs. 39: 2nd kingdom (chest & arms of silver) (WTBTS says Medo-Persia) and 3rd kingdom (abdomen and thighs of copper) (WTBTS says Greece)
vs. 40: 4th kingdom (legs of iron) (WTBTS says Rome)

Now, here's where it gets interesting.
vs 41-43: "“And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay."

Notice, it does not say 'another kingdom', or 'after that', or 'a fifth kingdom', or even 'divided into other kingdoms'. No. It says "the kingdom". Is this, then referring to the fourth kingdom? Or is there really a fifth kingdom as WTBTS says, Anglo-American?

I count four kingdoms listed. I do not count five.

Any thoughts?

There's no fifth kingdom, dear LQ (peace to you, dear one). The feet are part of the fourth kingdom - it has legs of iron and feet of iron AND clay:


You are that head of gold. (Kingdom 1)

After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. (Kingdom 2)

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. (Kingdom 3)

There will be a fourth kingdom (Kingdom 4)... strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.


Now, I've never received that it's the "Anglo-American" melarkey the WTBTS says. In fact, when I was a Jdub, EVERY time I heard that whole "anglo-american world power" term thing... something "in" me went "clang" (or "gong"... or some other kind of sour note). Meaning, it didn't "ring true." I also have not received that these are secular governments (remember, Nebuchadnezzar also eventually worshipped JAH).

I would also offer this: Christ is the stone "cut from the mountain" (Mt. Zion, the NEW Jerusalem)... the "Stone of Stumbling." MANY stumble over him. Some, however, are crushed by him (as that stone). In this case, the entire statue disenigrates because of the feet being crushed by the stone. It reminds ME of the WTC - NOT the events of 9/11 specifically (Lordy, please don't let no one start any conspiracy theories based on THIS - LOLOL!)... but in how some theorize the towers were able to come down - not solely the planes that hit the tops... but "something" that occurred at the BOTTOM.

But thinking that it's secular governments alone might be... folly. Unless that government is actually "in bed" with a harlot... and SHE'S really the power (ful woman) BEHIND the "man."

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Ok. So, you and I are in agreement that there are FOUR kingdoms.

Ever see that episode of Star Trek where Picard is captured and tortured and his captor turns on the lights and asks him how many lights he sees? Of course, there are only four lights. But he wants Picard to say five. So, he inflicts pain each time Picard answers wrong. By the end of the episode, when he is released, he shouts out "THERE. ARE. FOUR. LIGHTS!" He then later admits to Counselor Troi: "I believed I could see five lights."

This is how I feel right now.

As far as them not being governments... hmm. The verses do say "kingdom". The only one it doesn't say that with is the head of gold. It applies that specifically to Nebuchadnezzar, not Babylon.

Now, this is interesting. Let's say these were governments, empires, whatever is synonymous with kingdom. And let's say WTBTS is right about the identity of the second, third and fourth (Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome). That would mean that Daniel 2:44 has fulfillment during the days of "those kings". Which kings? Anyone from the first through the fourth, right? When did Christ appear? During the reign of the fourth, when Rome was in power. When was Christ given all authority? During the reign of the fourth kingdom! Blows 1914 out of the water.

Ok, so WTBTS doesn't actually teach there are five kingdoms in Daniel's prophecy. However, they DO teach that the Anglo-American world power is represented by the feet and toes, which emerged from, or grew out of the Roman empire. So, they don't come out and say "fifth kingdom", but that is, in essence, what they teach.

For Jehovah's Witnesss, 1914 is blown out of the water without even trying to figure THAT prophesy out, dear one (peace to you!)... along with their whole false teaching about our dear Lord being born "perfect." I mean, if THEIR Bible version is to be believed (and it is, at least as to these matters). Let me show you (from Hebrews 5:7-10):

During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chiz′e·dek."

Wait... wha... what? He LEARNED obedience? He didn't already KNOW it? Ummmm... nope. At least, Isaiah wrote that he didn't:

"JAHVEH himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman (virgin/maiden) will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Im·man′u·El. He will eat butter and honey by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy knows how to reject the bad and choose the good, the land of the two kings whom you dread will be completely abandoned." Isaiah 7:14-16

Well, lookit that! As a young CHILD... our dear Lord had to LEARN (something)! What? HOW TO CONTROL THAT SPIRIT... along WITH that flesh. We can see that he DIDN'T know how to control them in writing such as Thomas' gospel account. Remember, he was perfect IN SPIRIT... but not in FLESH. And the flesh and the spirit... are ENEMIES. He inherited a perfect spirit from the Father; he inherited his flesh, however, from a woman OF flesh... Mary. Which is why Paul wrote:

"What the Law was incapable of doing because it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit." Romans 8:3, 4

Say, what now? Christ had "sinFUL" flesh? As in flesh... FULL of SIN? Yep! Had to. Else (1)... how could be have been tested LIKE us... in ALL respects? We are sinFUL flesh. How equitable would it have been to put to the test someone whose flesh had NO sin in it? How could it be said that such a one was tested LIKE US, if that were the case? And, numero dos... and this is REALLY important... sinLESS... or PERFECT flesh... DOES NOT DIE. It CAN'T die. Because it does not have SIN... OR DEATH... IN it. t is only flesh with sin (and so death) IN it... the CORRUPTIBLE body... that dies. And our dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... died... in the flesh.

But, back to 1914...

Where the NWT states that our Lord was "made perfect," the actual word there translates to... wait for it... "inaugurated." Ummmm... say... WHAT, now? Yep. Well, at least according to the NWT Reference Bible footnote:



See the asterisk at verse 5? See the FOOTNOTE for verse 5? Let me quote that for you:

*... "after he HAD BEEN inaugurated"... no, no... wait... there's more, even BETTER... "(installED; empowerED; consecratED to office)."

Say what... NOW???? Yep, you read it... right out of THEIR Bible! Did you notice, those terms are PAST tense? "ED"? As in he [already] WAS? Yet, at the time this was written... 1914 wasn't even... heck, "on the radar" doesn't quite describe it!

Thing is, he WAS inauguratED... installED (as king)... empowerED (and so beginning to rule AND SUBDUE)... consecratED (ummm... made a PRIEST)... by the time the letter to the Hebrews was written. How do we KNOW? Because... THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE OUTPOURING OF HOLY SPIRIT: to SHOW... give EVIDENCE... that he HAD been installed... his kingship had COMMENCED... and he HAD begun to rule! LOLOL!

Which OCCURRED... on the evening of Pentecost... 30... CE (no, not 33 - he was 30 years old when he first OFFERED himself AS the Lamb... to do JAH's WILL... and was sacrificed 3.5 years later... at the age of 33.5. He was born in the fall of 4 BCE; began his work at age 30 in the fall of 26 CE... and gave his life 3.5 years later in the spring of 33.5 in the spring of 30 CE. I digress.)

Paul also wrote something that helps us see that he was already ruling WHEN Paul wrote it (long, long before 1914):

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order:

1. Christ the firstfruits (already done)

2. afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence (the first resurrection - Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 20:4, 6

3. Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. Revelation 20:5, 11-13

For [i]he must rule as king UNITL until God has put ALL enemies under his feet. As the LAST enemy, DEATH... is to be brought to NOTHING." Revelation 20:14

Our dear Lord began RULING, dear LQ... from the moment he was INSTALLED as king, which "moment" occurred when he entered returned to the spirit realm to offer is OWN blood as a sacrifice for those who belong to him. At THAT moment, he was given a seat at the right hand of the Father. Just as Joseph was given the seat second ONLY to Pharaoh. Joseph was told to sit and WAIT to rule. Nor was Christ. He BEGAN RULING... IN THE MIDST of his enemies! WHILE his enemies still existed! Because he MUST rule... AS king... UNTIL his enemies are placed under his feet... BY the Father.

He is seated at the RIGHT hand of God... UNTIL the last enemy is brought to nothing. THEN... the kingdom is given to him EN TOTALE. Because THEN... God becomes all things NOT just in HIM... but in ALL (who are still existing).

The WTBTS doesn't know what the frick (you know what I WANT to say - LOLOL!) it's talking about. But 1914 is a VERY good ploy to gain followers. People are SO lacking in faith, SO unable to listen to and hear Christ speak HIMSELF... because they are so AFRAID... of EVERYTHING (and isn't that the primary tool of the WTBTS? Fear? It's what they want, what they teach, what they foment!). They're even afraid to THINK!

And so you know the old addage, don't you? "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance... baffle 'em with BS?"

Yeah, well, that "1914" piece of BS is just that: a piece of BS. And a very BIG piece. The stench can be smelled all the way up to heaven. Makes ME gag!

I hope this helps, truly!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar, who doesn't know WHY she can't get that dang image to turn right side up!!

Obviously, you don't have to convince ME, Shelby. I'm already fully convinced.

Thank you for pointing me to that footnote. However, it can be argued that this is in his position as High Priest since that's what follows in verse 10. As I lay in bed last night contemplating this, and AFTER talking to our Lord, the phrase "King of those who rule as kings" came to mind. I looked it up this morning.

1 Tim 6:16: He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords

This was written to Timothy, and thus Paul acknowledged that he was King THEN!!!

Laying in bed, for some reason, I thought this was in the introduction to Revelation, so I had to look that up this morning. It wasn't this, however:

Rev 1:5: and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”

Even Christ says he was the Ruler THEN, when he gave the Revelation to John!!!

OH. MY. GAWD!!!! How did I never see this before???!!!!!????

That is a good verse, Leaving. Very clear and concise, showing that Christ was ruling loooooong before 1914.


When He returned to His Father, glorified.


Peace to you both,
tammy

I mistyped the verse reference above. It should be 1 Tim 6:15 (not vs 16)

Yes great point!

There's a lot we never saw before when our eyes were focused on the GB instead of Christ who is the copper serpent and where our eyes should be focused, as well as listening to him verses the WTBS.

Love and peace to you all
Justmom

Can I add what was revealed to me long ago? i mean like ....wait, someone revealed it to me who the Master revealed it to them so I can't take credit for this but here ya go:


Matthew 28: 26 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 28:19 Therefore go 27 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 28 28:20 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, 29 I am with you 30 always, to the end of the age.” 31


Doesn't all authority belong to a king? When God 'hands the kingdom to him to rule over?

Me

Another thing, Since we're talking about Daniel. I also don't know if this makes any sense, but in regards to chapter 7 and the beats that are to arise, The Jw's also have it mixed up on that one as well.


I'm not sure very knowledgeable about these things, But what I can give, and maybe not entirely, but if this links up somehow, please note:

Daniel 7

Talking about the four beasts. Now i could be mistaken here, I kinda stopped trying to figure out prophecy and everything since the world didn't end in 1999,1994,1975,1935,1922,1918,1914,1874.

But Daniel 7 when it talks about the four beasts in daniel's vision...

7:17 ‘These large beasts, which are four in number, represent four kings who will arise from the earth.’"

babylon can't be the first on THIS vision. Those beasts are those that WILL come, not one that was here and three more to come or whatever. I thought maybe they were DIFFERENT somehow, cause clearly it does say that Neb is the first head of gold in the OTHER verses. Maybe there's a completely different thought process here (kings vs kingdoms) or whatever. Who knows.

All I know is, I like my mango, .....it's delicious.

Me

Okayyy, as to the WTBTS and Babylon, dear V (peace, luv!)... and THANKS for the reminder as to our dear Lord saying he had been given ALL authority... long, long before 1914! I had totally forgotten about that... but think now, perhaps, it was for YOU to share this time! LOLOLOL! So glad you remembered and did! LOLOL!

And man, you ARE on a roll, aren't'cha? He's catching you up, luv. Just get in, sit down, hang on... and GO with with! And... HANG ON - LOLOL! Tight!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Voices: And . . . not only that, but . . .

If one HAS BEEN GIVEN "ALL AUTHORITY"--"ALL AUTHORITY"--can one be given MORE authority later on (say like A.D. 1914)?

I'm just asking. . . .

--Armand

um..No? I mean, I don't believe in the whole 1914 thing. Not to mention that All authority by definition would mean, that person has authority....over .....all?

Did I miss something? *scratches head*

I believe that ALL authority means ALL authority with the exception of over Jah, which is the one that granted all authority to his son. ( Pharoah and Joseph ex)

Peace and love to you,
Kim