xjwsforChrist

I've been fascinated with this portion of scripture from Revelation 12 for a long time...



So how did the angels fight? Obviously it was a spiritual rather than physical war... I've asked about this but I've not heard anything so far...

Any thoughts anyone?

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Ooops!!

???

Peace,
LQ

Oops, a couple things, dear LQ (mornin' and peace to you, luv!):

1. I wanted to allow time for anyone else who might to respond to do so; and
2. I accidentally posted my response before it was completed (I meant to click "save draft" but clicked "submit")

I will try to post before I have to leave today, but my laptop is "acting up" this morning, so... I dunno. It really needs to go in the shop (or maybe replaced but I don't want to spend the $$ for that, right now).

Also, I'm not sure if I should post it on the open board. I do have a personal right to privacy... and although I could be flattered at being the topic of discussion (elsewhere), it's kind of boring and wearisome when it's always negative. Pearls and all that. So, I'll ask... and we'll see where my response ends up.

In the meantime, any others are more than welcome to share their understanding, as well. I look forward to reading them!

Peace... and "see" you (and you, dear Loz - mornin' and peace to you, as well, luv!) in a bit!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

If you mean it was "symbolic" versus actual/literal/real dear Loz (again, peace to you, dear lady!), then I have to share that it was both... if I understand what you mean (a symbolic conflict, fought symbolically... versus an ACTUAL and REAL conflict, LITERALLY fought by REAL "people").

Because of the false teachings of those who claim to "know"... as to what is meant by "spiritual"... it can be confusing to compare the "spiritual" with the "physical." Because some consider "spiritual" to not be real or literal, but symbolic. That is an error. Things are "spiritual" because they are (1) OF the spirit; (2) done by spirit BEINGS; and perhaps (3) perhaps done in the spirit REALM (maybe not; some are done here... but again, OF the spirit and BY spirit beings, versus of the FLESH, by beings of FLESH (with its blood).

But they are VERY real, actual, and absolutely literal. Just not PHYSICAL in that they aren't done by those of flesh with its blood. "Celestial"... not "terrestrial." They ARE "physical" in that they are carried out... literally... by actual beings; such beings are not physical, however, per se... because they are not flesh with its blood as the source of life in them... but spirit(ual): either of flesh OR substance... but with GOD's blood, holy spirit, as the "source" of life in them.

Here, there was a real, actual, literal ["physical" as in spirit bodily] conflict... fought by real, actual, literal beings... for a real, actual, literal reason... with both a symbolic AND a literal fulfillment... but may have been presented to some through a symbolic dramatization. Including me, your servant.

The vision I was given might help you "see" what I mean... once I am sure as to where to post it. I ask your patience while I wait on the answer to that.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

I've been pondering this all morning, off and on. What came to my mind was what happened in Daniel 10:13, when the speaker said the prince of Persia stood in opposition to him, and Michael came to his aid. Reading that account, one cannot help but wonder if it was Jaheshua who was speaking... eyes a fiery flame, feet like copper... very much like a description of the Son of Man in Revelation. I don't know who the prince of Persia is, or who the kings of Persia are, though. But, it does sound as if this Michael is very strong, and as if this was a physical struggle among spirit beings.

That absolutely was our dear Lord, speaking, dear LQ (peace to you!). How do we know? Well, we have the "physical" description, which is the same as John described, as you pointed out. We also have Daniel's own words:

"10 And behold, a hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly loved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. 12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, 14 and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”

15 When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and was mute. 16 And behold, one in the likeness of the children of man touched my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke. I said to him who stood before me, “O my lord, by reason of the vision pains have come upon me, and I retain no strength. 17 For now no strength remains in me, and no breath is left in me.”

18 Again one having the appearance of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19 And he said, “O man greatly loved, fear not, peace be with you; be strong and of good courage.” And as he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.” 20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? But now I will return to fight against the prince of Persia; and when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince."

So, BESIDES Daniel's description of who was speaking with him (which, again, corresponds to John's)... we have at least three (3) other things here that tell us who was speaking to Daniel:

1. Daniel calls him "my Lord" (verses 16 and 17). People get confused by his question:

How can my lord's servant talk with my lord?

In MODERN vernacular, Daniel was acknowledging his lowliness before the HOLY One of Israel ("How is it that I, YOUR SERVANT, can even speak with YOU... MY LORD? Because I am not WORTHY to do so!")

Had Daniel been speaking to anyone else... and called them "Lord"... if they were truly FROM JAH/CHrist... THEY would have corrected him and told him NOT to call them that.

John 13:13
Ephesians 4:4
Revelation 19:10; 22:9

2. He greets Daniel by saying "Peace be with you"

John 20:19, 21, 26

3. He obviously ISN'T Michael... who the WT very FALSELY teaches IS Christ... because the one SAID he "had no one LIKE Michael" to fight with him (by is side).

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Oh, yes, it helps continuously. <smile>

Yes Shelby, I presumed it was a literal war, and probably symbolic too. I meant by not 'physical' that it wasn't fleshly, because they're spirit beings.

Sorry for the confusion.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

I have been reminded this morning of the description of angels that has been shared with us here previously, and subsequently their fearsome power. That our Lord describes Michael as the strongest to support Daniel, as the one 'at his side' indicates where his reliance for power lay. This position would mean I think that he and his angels would be filled with the spirit of Jah, whilst Satan and the opposing angels would be losing that same spirit on the basis of their disobedience, and their rejection of Jah's authority. We recall they can only be destroyed by 'fire'? Nevertheless, that one of those could stand in opposition to Daniel for 21 days, and have to be opposed by the strongest prince, highlights their residual (even if fading) strength.

Now that I've been reminded of the 'bodies' of the spirit beings, I am envisioning a very gruesome war in heaven, indeed. But with Christ as the ascended King in heaven with "all authority" granted to Him, He would have been able to further strengthen his angels for the heavenly war, no?

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Angels fought a PHYSICAL conflict.
The battle was very intense, very gruesome and far beyond out ability to comprehend, truly a battle to "shake the cosmos".

The visions of Daniel always resonated with me as Christ being the one to be speaking with Daniel, BUT the challenging part would be WHY Christ needs ANYONE's help, even Michael's, to contend with Satan.

WHOOO-HOOOO, dear, dear Loz (mornin' and peace to you, dear one!) - I LOVE how you're "learning" to "think"!!! It can be a bit of a process, yes; unfortunately, some think that "understanding" will just be GIVEN - that is not and has never been the case, though. If it were, our dear Lord would not have spoken in parables... only to have to explain them to the disciples, later. He WANTS us to THINK... to "reason" out [the meanings] of things. Why? TO RAISE OUR MINDS... which, in turn, raises our hearts! To bring us UP... rather than do what the world does, which is to [try and] bring JAH DOWN.

For most in this world, "higher" thinking is with regard to THIS world in what's in IT; hence, "science," which is the study/examination of THIS world and the things in IT. The thinking that Christ "teaches" is not limited to this world - it surpasses it, yet, includes/encompasses it. It leads to ALL truth: that of the spirit world AND this one!

And that is why religion is SO influential: people don't WANT to think, at least not beyond THIS world, and most not even as to THIS world. Most would rather have others think FOR them... then tell them "what" to think. A grave mistake, as it leads to being totally misled. Others make an even graver mistake: limiting their thinking to things of this world... and then taking credit for what they come to understand about it... rather than giving the glory to JAH and Christ. Were they to do that, give such glory where it belongs... they would come to understand SO much more... as so much more would be GIVEN them!

Contrary to what religion... most prominently, "christian" religion... especially cult religions, including LDS, SDA, Fundamentalism, etc,... and most particularly, those like the WTBTS... teach/foment/require... THINKING is not only GOOD... but NECESSARY. For example, as we know, not ALL inspired expressions originate with God. If one is not a thinker, however, one will most probably ASSUME that the "expression" DID originate with God. Because the thinking is, most likely, "Why would it NOT be? I don't follow/belong to anyone ELSE, so who ELSE would be speaking to me?" Or "But I belong to God/Christ; why would they LET anyone else speak to me?"

They forget, however, the challenge to all of mankind... who are enemies are... and what their goal is: to have us give UP our eternal life (not take it; they can't - we have to GIVE it). By giving UP that life... they believe (falsely) that we "weaken" the "Christ" - there are less of us in his Body... and so his "body" is weakened. They forget the power of the FATHER, however... because THEY don't think, either.

Anyway, you, dear lady... KEEP seeking/asking/knocking... and KEEP considering/reasoning upon the things you know already, and may be given still. Use them to raise your thinking UP (for instance, you may have thought you knew what "love," "peace," "faith," etc. WERE... but have learned that what we THOUGHT we knew was really NOTHING in comparison to the REAL things!).

On another note, I do not have the freedom to post my vision re the war here. I have come to understand that it is a "pearl of great value," which some will not appreciate, unfortunately, but attempt to ridicule. In which case, I don't want to waste it. Even more, for ME, is that some will attempt to use it to ridicule ME... but overlook that, in their words, they will actually be ridiculing the One who gave the vision to me. Out of love... and loyalty... to HIM... I will not just give them fodder, at least not directly. There will still be ridicule, I'm sure, by some who are NOT given access to the actual vision, but that's okay - they ridicule what and who they do not know... but they won't be able to ridicule what's being shared with US in this regard.

I hope all that I've shared here helps... and I will post the other in a few minutes.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

Shellamar

The answer is actually pretty simple, dear, dear P (mornin', peace... and GOOD TO SEE YOU, brother!). It's related to each's original purpose. In the vision I will share, I think you will be able to "see" this.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Hi Shel,
Great to "see" you too as always
Personally I have no issues that Christ had a reason to allow Satan to oppose Him till Michael helped, I am sure He had, as always, His reasons ( probably doing to Michael and Satan's "relationship").
I just have heard that being raised as an issue and why some feel that the "one like the son of man" in that ( Daniel's) vision was another angel and not Our Lord.

Only doin' my yob, dear, dear LQ (peace to you, luv!), but thank you - that's really good to know!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow good-for-nothing slave... and so who's only doing what she ought to have done... as she knows you all would do for her... of Christ,

Shellamar