xjwsforChrist

What are the "new heavens" and "new earth"? This promise was made to Isaiah in Isaiah 65:17,18. It associates "Jerusalem" to the "new heavens and new earth". Does this mean "new Jerusalem"? How is it a new earth, then? The the WT explanation is for these ("new heavens" = God's Kingdom, "new earth" = new earthly society of humans who will have demonstrated their willing submission to God’s Kingdom.)

There are a few interpretations of this.
Some view the "new heaven" as just that, a renewal of Heaven proper with no more "rebellious angels", ever.
Some view the new earth as the Earth made new again ( in various understandings of that that means).
Some view it as when Heaven's dimension and Earth's finally meet and both become ONE, in the sense that we can travel freely between both not that both are in the same plane of existence THOUGH some think THAT is what it will be.
And so forth...

Revelations gives us, perhaps, the best view BUT it is highly symbolic so...

IMO:
We know that God values free will and we know that ONLY God is perfect and without Sin, so that means that regardless of what happens there will still be the possibility of evil and danger.
God's angels rebelled and they were as close to God as possible, will we be any better?
Some say yes BUT to that I simply remind them of FREE WILL.

I never really give this part of the bible much thought, the whole "future" thing I have never focused on at all, why you may ask?

This is why:



I agree that it is not OUR Place to know about these things, they will happen when they happen and they will happen HOW they happen.

Well, New Jerusalem, as our Lord reminds me... is the Holy City made of people.

I think Peter answers what the new heavens and new earth are himself: the home of righteousness. God will also dwell with(in) men. No more death, no more sorrow.

Maybe that is not what you were asking?

Peace,
tammy

Paul, I appreciate that sentiment.

So, there's three references to "new heavens and new earth". Isaiah 65:17, 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1.

Depending on the translation, it's either "new heavens" (plural) or "new heaven" or a mix.
NIV has plural in Isaiah and singular in 2 Peter and Revelation.
NWT and KJV have plural in Isaiah and 2 Peter and singular in Revelation.
I don't know if there's anything to that.

Isaiah seems to be the original prophecy
Peter commented about it and showed it to still be future
Revelation shows it fulfilled

Isa 65:17,18 (NIV): “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy."

In this context, I'm uncertain whether Jerusalem is the new Jerusalem, and whether it's the new heavens or new earth or both.

Rev 21:1,2 (NIV): Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

This seems to suggest that "a new heaven" and new Jerusalem are separate things since new Jerusalem comes down "out of heaven".

I still don't know conclusively what these are. As Paul mentioned, there's plenty of interpretations out there.

In the views of some, there is "progressive revelation" in the bible.
That means that the earlier OT prophets , while they had direct revelation from Christ, they didn't have the WHOLE picture.
I disagree with that view.
I think that yes, there is progressive understanding of revelation.
I think that much more made sense in the light of the resurrection, that so much of Isaiah's prophecies became clearer AFTER the resurrection.
It was after Christ resurrected that His divine nature was made manifest, it was after that the apostles understood "Immanuel" and understood what Isaiah meant when He spoke of Christ as "mighty God, everlasting Father, etc".

As for a "new heaven" and "new Jerusalem", well...
IMO:
I think that it does mean that this world will be a portal between God and Us, much like the OLD Jerusalem was SUPPOSED to be.

Wonderful questions, comments, and responses (peace to you, all!). Thank you all! May I also weigh in? I don't want to override anything that anyone else has shared, but perhaps to clarify some things, perhaps a bit, if possible? Thank you, all!



The WTBTS is in error, dear one, and the answer is quite... elementary, actually.

The "new heavens" INCLUDES the NEW "Jerusalem," yes. It is the spirit realm that NOW includes those "bought from the earth" with the blood of Christ, who were not part of that realm before but NOW make up one of the most important parts of it: the seed of the Woman has been born... and, together with the "head" of the "child"... has received it's inheritance! In addition, it not longer has ANY in it who are opposed to or contenders with the rightful heir and king of THAT realm AND this one (Matthew 28:18)... the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... who makes of the "head" of the "Christ" child. His enemies (the Adversary and opposing spirit beings) and JAH's (Death)... which are OUR enemies, the BODY... no longer exist in that realm. Therefore, it is new... and so, is the NEW "Jerusalem"... or NEW "City of [Double] Peace"... which JAH Himself has RECREATED (made "anew")... when He put ALL of our dear Lord's enemies under his foot... and brought the LAST enemy, Death, to nothing. Having been COMPLETELY cleansed... it can be said the the spirit realm has been REcreated... and thus, made aNEW.

The "new earth" is the physical realm... now cleansed of death... and that which causes/results in death: sin (the error/disobedience, the wage/price/cost for which is death). Death exists no more in the physical realm... and so it, too, is "new"... or REcreated. As a result of this, NO more outcry, NO more mourning, NO more death. Those FORMER things... things that existed BEFORE... will have passed away, been removed... and destroyed, forever. And it will eventually be FULLY rid of anything, anyone, everything, and everyone CAUSING pain. Whether of the physical realm or... subsequently, in the spirit realm (oh, yeah, some spirit(s) COULD choose to rebel again!).

But here is why they won't: from that point on, there is only destruction... which means complete annihilation of the body AND the spirit. Death (the state of sleep of the spirit and decomposition of the body of flesh, not the ENTITY/spirit being that is Death)... only pertains to the flesh (which is of no use at all) - it has NO effect whatsoever on the spirit/spirit beings, which must be destroyed. Once the white robe (the incorruptible spirit body) is put ON... only destruction can end the life of the one occupying it. This is why the spirits that rebelled/sin are not dead... but awaiting destruction. Spirit beings DO NOT DIE:

"But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection." Luke 20:35, 36

But they CAN be destroyed, just as Magog (the angels that sinned), the Adversary, and Death are all destroyed: by fire. Revelation 20:9, 10, 14

Because fire can destroy both the body AND the spirit... if it is INTENSE enough, and fire from the spirit realm absolutely is intense... so much so that the entire creation has been waiting for certain spirits to be weakened enough so that THEIR destruction doesn't result in destruction of the ENTIRE creation. Matthew 10:28.

Unlike previously, now, and for a bit longer... destruction is put off and so justice is delayed... there will no waiting periods. Once the heavens and earth have been cleansed this one great time... ANYTHING/ONE and EVERYTHING/ONE trying to start up all over again will simply be destroyed. They will HAVE to be. Why? Because... death no longer exists. So death... cannot be the "wage" for sin. Sin will not be the result of IMperfection, but there will be none that are IMperfect... except that they CHOOSE imperfection by CHOOSING to rebel against the NEW heavens and earth.

They make that "choice"... by harming/bringing pain... outcry... mourning... to others in those new heavens and earth. That will not be permitted to occur. Even before they bring to FRUITION such desires, the WHITE robe... or spirit body... will REVEAL the intent(s) of the HEART... so that such is readily open and exposed. Not like now, where our flesh "covers" our motives and intents... and hides them from one another. NOTHING is hidden from JAH and Christ NOW... and NOTHING will be hidden from ANYONE, then.

I hope this helps, dear one!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

IMO: we know that ONLY God is perfect and without Sin,

I have to disagree with that, dear, dear P (peace to you, luv!). You are correct, that our dear Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, is perfect and without sin... but His Son and King, our dear Lord and Master, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of Israel (MischaJah)... is also without sin. True, he at one time had a fleshly body, which was FULL of sin... but he took THAT body to the grave... and raised up with it cleansed of all sin... and thus, no longer have death in it.

In addition, there are angels that have NOT sinned. Including OUR "prince", Mischa'El... who, to this very day, has stood fast with HIS face toward the "Cover" that is our dear Lord. And there are others.

Sin is rebellion, disobedience, error, and lack of love/faith... as to the SPIRIT... and sickness/disease/imperfection, aging, and death... as to the flesh. While some, many, spirit beings, although not have sin (sickness, aging, and death) IN them... HAVE sinned (rebelled, disobeyed, and erred)... not all. Mischa'El... and HIS angels... have not.

While they may not be perfect (as that relates to love, and thus, only JAH and Christ are!)... they have not (yet) sinned.

My apologies for my tendency to be pedantic... but accuracy is VERY important... if God's sheep are not be misled. Which I know NONE of wish to do. So, I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

My apologies for forgetting, so I was directed back to respond to this, dear P (again, peace to you, dear one!):




I do not mean to contend but only to perhaps present another "way" of looking at what our dear Lord said and meant. At the time the disciples asked him their question, it truly was NOT time for them to know/understand. Nor did they have the ability... because holy spirit had not been poured out, yet. One of the purposes of that "oil", however, was to UNSTOP ears and GIVE sight (to the blind)... so that when the time ARRIVED, actually before that, when it came NEAR... they would be able to hear the "call" and SEE the "signs":

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:29-33

So, while it is true that we do not know... nor can we know... the times and epochs as to when the kingdom (of the NEW Jerusalem) is restored... I'm thinking we're supposed to stay alert so as to see the signs that indicate it is near (if we are still alive when they begin to occur)... or at least have enough oil in our lamps so that when we are awakened (if we have fallen asleep (in death).

It seems logical and in line with the admonition:

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Those Jews who got out of the city and avoided being massacred by the Romans were able to do so... because they heeded the signs our dear Lord gave them to know what "time" it was. Thing is... we haven't been GIVEN what the "sign (of the Son of Man)" IS... yet. All we can do is [try to] stay awake... so long as our FLESH can do so... and LISTEN... so that when he TELLS us what it is, we WILL recognize it. Even SEE it.

I hope this helps!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Sorry, I tend to think that when I say God, most know that includes Christ ( hanging out with Trinitarians too much, LOL).
That some angles are strong enough not to sin doesn't take away that they are not perfect, that angels are not perfect.
That we may attain the status and "be like the angels" does NOT mean that we will not sin in the future, that there will be no sin in the future.
There is always the chance of sin when free will is present.

When we have one eye open for signs, we end up only having one eye open to find the path.
Balance in these things tend to be very tricky, as the WTBTS has proven over and over again ( like other apocalyptic cults).
I tend to leave the when's and how's to Our Lord, probably why the whole "end of this system" crap from the JW's never hit home with me.

Let me restate what you said, Shelby, just to see if I got it right.


"new heavens" = literally the heavenly realm, made up of the existing heavens, including New Jerusalem (a city of chosen ones, God and his Christ), but without the Adversary or his angels. It's considered "new" only when all enemies, including death, are brought to nothing.


"new earth" = physical earth, but without sin, death or any who/that might cause pain.

Do I understand these correctly? (I know your style is verbose, but I need to boil it down to something my simplistic mind can grasp).

To be completely accurate, dear one (mornin' and peace to you!)... and pedantic (forgive me, LOL!)... the "new heavens" means a new SPIRIT realm. Because the Adversary and his angels still exist, as do certain "demons" (bad spirits). They came here/were sent here/were hurled down here... (into) the physical realm... but are still spirits and so still exist in some part of the spirit realm, although nowhere near where they were before. But they have not been abyssed/destroyed, yet... and they are not flesh with its blood but still spirit beings.

And, yes, it is new when all enemies, PARTICULARLY Death... and the status to humans that HE wroughts, are brought to nothing. It is new because it is REcreated - "in the REcreation" - if something is RE-created it is created over again/ANEW.



Yes!

They are both cleansed... BY FIRE... which either comes down from JAH Himself... OR into which those who are sullying them UP are hurled:

Revelation 20:9, 10, 14, 15; Psalm 18:8

This is what Peter was referring to when he wrote:

"... you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 2 Peter 3:3-7

The first time, the earth alone (which is in the physical realm) was cleansed... and by water. Which water was used to create it... as well as destroy all that was on it. And so, it was not just water that is H20 (Genesis 1:2; 7:11).

The next time... it will be by fire... and NOT the fire that exists in the physical realm. Because the next time... it will not just be the earth OR physical realm that are cleansed... but the spirit realm, as well.

The result will be NEW creation... by means of a RE-creation.

I hope this helps, dear one!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Yes.





And yes, yes... to both of these.


Some time ago, I was pondering this in regard to how God works to help us... not out of arbitrary punishment as man has taught and been taught, often due to the false pen of the scribes and ignorance/lack of understanding/not knowing Christ. So that the 'flood' came as a result of what happened and/or because of something that needed TO happen, to cleanse the earth... to protect the seed. FOR us.



Peace to you!

tammy

Yep! 'Cause the SEED... was NOT harmed, dear tec (peace to you, luv!). It came THROUGH the Flood... through Noah... by means of his sons!

GREAT comment! Thanks... and peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

.

Can I ask clarification on this? Is that to say that Michael doesn't love his enemies cause he isn't perfect in his love? if that's the case, isn't that a sin?

Me