xjwsforChrist

ANNEB SAID


Would anybody care to resume the discussion on the look of "spirit creatures" as described in the Bible? I seem to recall mention of such somewhere else online...

OUTLAW SAID

LOL!!..
Oh Shelby!!..

........................... ...OUTLAW

AGUEST SAID

The funny (as in interesting) thing about it, dear Anne (peace to you, dear one!) is how we forget that many words have different meanings. When the word "dragon" is mentioned, we immediately assume/picture the medieval fire-breathing beast sought and slayed by many a valiant knight. What people don't realize is that such depictions are kinda like that "blind men describing an elephant" analogy. Can someone really draw an accurate rendering of something they've personally never seen? Won't they only draw what THEY perceive the thing to be? And given our vast differing perceptions...

It also never ceases to amaze me how we, man, often ridicule a thing because we don't/are able to understand it. Like middle school boys ridiculing menses. Or the WTBTS ridiculing vaccines. Things they COULD understand, if only they were able to move past the limitations of their current immature viewpoints.

It also amazes me how certain people also forget that many words in our modern language have an etymology. For them, the modern word IS the word and derived from nothing before it. Which is utterly untrue as to virtue EVERY word in the modern English language. Such ones would do themselves so much good if they would research words... such as "dragon"... and do so beyond the current "modern" dictionaries/websites that only give the "popular" use of such words.

For example, the word dragon:


The thinking is that a "serpent" is a "snake". It isn't, though. No more than those my Lord referred to as "offspring of vipers" meant such were the children of snakes. "Serpents"... are spirit beings: seraphs. Flying, fiery, flesh-eating, beings. Because the scribes who transliterated the Bible writings didn't understand this, though, the translations make these out to be mere beasts... snakes... as opposed to personages, although not earthling/physical/human.

Notice this, though:



Now, compare that with:

Wings - Psalm 18:10; Isaiah 6:2, 6
Scales - Acts 9:18
Serpent body - Exodus 20:4; Numbers 21:8, 9; John 3:14; 8:28; Daniel 10:6; Revelation 1:15
Fiery breath - 2 Samuel 22:9; Psalm 18:8; Isaiah 30:27

Of course, this isn't a lot, but there wasn't supposed to BE a lot. We weren't supposed to KNOW of them by reading of them. We were supposed to KNOW... by means of our relationship with them. When that failed, then it was by means of Prophets. When THAT failed... it was... and still is... by means of the Son, the Copper Serpent that was lifted up to save mankind (all of whom've been "bitten" by the "offspring of vipers"... men who show themselves to be the "children of the Devil.")

Thus, that spirit beings are dragons (seraphs - i.e., fiery, flying, flesh-eating beings) is not so because there is lot written about them... or because what is written is in a couple/few books of a certain compilation (meaning, the Bible, which is not "a" book, but several books, some of which were inspired, some of which weren't... all of which were tampered with, accidentally as well a purposefully). They are so... because it is the truth: spirit beings are dragons. Seraphs. And not medieval beasts or snakes. The serpent in Eden was not a snake; he was... and is... a seraph. A dragon. Which is why John referred to him as such, as well as as a "serpent" (seraph) at Revelation 12:9.

I realize that this might a lot for some to wrap their heads around. This is due to the "adult" thinking... as well as ties to the physical world... and flesh... that stands in our way. If we "become as young children", however, NOT with regard to all things, of course, but with regard to THESE things... we can at least become OPEN to the possibility, first... and perhaps THEN to the reality. If not, we become enslaved to what our minds... and hearts... have become bound to: only that which we can perceive empirically at the present time. Like those who will not believe... unless they see.

The promise from Christ, however, is that it was those who believed, but did NOT see... who would be happy. This is because, due to their entertaining the possibility, indeed, exercising FAITH in it... they are granted the reality!

Even a scientist has to have SOME belief... faith... in the possibility... before she can seek... and possibly find... the reality. Those verses above are just a few clues. More than most find in the average hunt for "treasure."

I hope this helps and wish you peace!

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

ANTHONY SAID

Yeah -- by the time I had posted my follow-up questions on JWD AGUEST had left the building. I need to find them.

BTW -- I have 'crazy' ideas that make 'dragons' look like the most rationale thing in the world.
_________________
Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'
www.anthonymathenia.com

AGUEST SAID



Post 'em, dear A (peace to you!), along with your follow-up questions, if still necessary, and our Lord permitting I will try to respond (of course, anyone else can respond, as well, if they have comments/received some insight, etc.). It really is quite a wonderful topic, actually, with some great lessons for members of our Lord's Body!

Peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ, the "'Copper' Seraph/Serpent/Dragon",

SA

ANTHONY SAID


Reposting from JWD:

I don't know if you have mentioned it before, but have you anything on the depiction of the satan as a dragon with seven heads in the Revelation? Does this one really have seven heads or is it symbolic?

When you say that these ones have the appearance of dragons, is it a physical appearance (flesh and blood) or a spiritual/supernatural one? Could they choose to manifest in a different manner if they wanted? Many people have tesified to seeing reptialian beings and consider them to be an alien race from a different star system. Is this what you know or is it more as people traditionally view God and the angels, as living, not in this physical universe, but rather some other spiritual realm. Is there a significance to their degree of beauty, or is it just, for lack of a better word, genetics?

Your responses are appreciated!
_________________
Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'
www.anthonymathenia.com

AGUEST SAID

Greetings, dear A, and peace to you!



The heads are symbolic, dear A, although, spirit beings can make themselves appear as they wish, so long as it's a living thing... and they are not restricted (i.e., confined, chained, etc.) from doing so by JAH. I have not heard or seen what the heads of the Adversary dragon represent; however, I do know what those of the wild beast to which he gives authority are. My Lord revealed them to me when he revealed the identity of one of those heads, the Jewish religious system, which Jeremiah identified long before. To understand, we have to start with what is written in the Revelation:

"And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority. And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.

And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.


If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. (See Jeremiah 15:2; 30:16) Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones."

The head that received the death-stroke, which stroke got healed... is adulterous Israel, and particularly that part that is "Aholibah" (Judah/Benjamin)... or the Jews in regard to their system of worship. Jeremiah 8:22; 14:19; 15:18; 30:12-15, 17; 33:6-8. Because of their gross idolatrous adultery, JAH not only rejected them, but allowed their enemies to devastate and desecrate them; however, because of His LOVE for THEM... He healed them. Ezekiel 23:1-49; Nehemiah 1:1-13:31; Ezra 2:1, 2; 3:1; 6:16-22; 7:12-28


When I realized that the one head was Judaism, I was able to understand where the WTBTS fit into the symbolism of Revelation 13:11-18, particularly verses 14 and 15, where it is instrumental in having those "who dwell on the earth" (actually, those "whose minds are upon the things upon the earth") make an image to the [head of] the wild beast that received a death-stroke yet revived. How do they do this? By bringing BACK... THE LAW COVENANT... which was impaled with Christ! By reestablishing the Law Covenant, they "breath life" into that "image" so that the image "speaks and cause(s) to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image."

These do not bring back the wild beast itself, but the IMAGE of that beast. An image is a reflection of something else... the thing gazed upon in place of the real thing, and not the real thing itself. The WTBTS practically teaches Judaism, at least as far as adherence to the Law Covenant (those parts they can't justify away with NT teachings and revelations), but not actually. It uses the Law Covenant, and fears fomented under it, such as condemnation, punishment, and death to "put under compulsion" the small and the great. It uses its two horns, the WT and AW, which although like a lamb... or TRUTH... speak as a dragon (i.e., LIE). They are called "horns", because they are the beast's strength (i.e., "if it isn't in the WT or Awake!... then it isn't true!").

I digress, as there is much, much more to be said about that beast (which came out of the earth), but I want to return to the first beast, with the seven heads, etc.

Anyway, once I understood what the one head was, I was able to receive what the other heads are: religions. Contrary to the false teachings of the WTBTS, Babylon the Great is NOT the "empire of false religion." The wild beast that comes out of the SEA... is that. Babylon is those of mankind who were once joined to God, through Christ, but committed adultery... by fornicating with the "kings of the earth." Since not all religions even claim a union with Christ, all religions cannot be that Harlot. One cannot commit adultery against one to whom they were never married. Thus, it is only those who professed a marriage... union... with the Most Holy One of Israel (i.e., Israel)... or with Christ (a christian, by means of holy spirit)... who can be included as part of "her."



They have never manifested to me in that appearance physically, as I think you mean that word. In the physical form, they appeared as "able-bodied" men. Meaning, healthy, upright "human". Although once they were wearing wings! They were medical flight attendants - LOL!.

When I see them as seraphs (which isn't common, please understand), I would say that's more... spiritual (I don't walk up and grab 'em or anything; well, not so far - LOL!) - although it is sometimes in a vision I am awake and they are there. They're not... ummmm... transparent (LOL!) or what do you can that, ethereal... wispy? They are solidly formed and very powerful looking (all sinew, no fat... although they can be whatever size/height they choose... and I have seen them tiny as well as gigantic - they are not confined to space as we are and so can manifest in as much or little space as they choose).



They can and do. I mean, unless they've a particular assignment, in which case they must manifest as directed.



Yes, I know. So you can imagine how it blew my mind when I realized what they looked like. "How'm I gonna explain THIS, Lord? They're gonna think I've been watching too many Star Wars movies or something!" His response was... sublime: it's not ALL such movie-makers'/sci-fi writers' imaginations! They just don't always know where their ideas sometimes come from (often, from others' ideas/books/movies, etc., but not always), and those that do/suspect would never profess it for fear of being mocked, ridiculed, perhaps even locked up. Certainly run out of the business!



I'm not sure what you mean here, dear one. It's what I know but only because it's what my Lord allowed me to see and/or revealed to me about these things. As for what people traditionally view, sometimes tradition is based on truth, even it that truth has been altered over time.

Is there a significance to their degree of beauty, or is it just, for lack of a better word, genetics?

Degree of beauty? If we're speaking of their appearance, it's just the opposite, with our Lord being the most... ummmm... un-beautiful. At least, from a human POV as to "beauty." Their beauty is not related to their physical appearance; rather, it's what's INSIDE them that is the gauge of their beauty. Hence, the Adversary (BeliJah El) and his twin, Michael (Mischa El) are the two beautiful specimens, as you and I would consider "beauty". There is no comparison to their appearance, except one to the other.

It was this appearance, actually, what was the impetus for our Adversary's downfall: rather than keeping his face toward the Cover (Christ, the Propitiatory, a plain, very unattractive "copper" seraph, he turned his gaze upon his own "beauty" and opined that HE should be given a seat of glory as a result. He turned his gaze to himself... because he could see his own outward beauty... in that of his twin, the other cherub covering the Ark. Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17; Exodus 25:17-22; 1 John 2:2



LOLOLOL! I am sure I gave you more than you bargained for, dear one - LOLOLOL! But, yes, the heads are symbolic. They represent the major religions which the Adversary uses to seek out, devour, and/or mislead... even the chosen ones.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

ANTHONY SAID

Thank you for your responses.

I've never met an angel before face-to-face. I thought I had picked one up before, and even asked him as much. The horrified look on the hitchhikers face spoke volumes: "GET ME OUT OF THIS CRAZY GUY'S CAR!" (I should share that story in the walking by faith section, it is fun.)

My understanding in Revelation is that "the earth" should be understand as "the land", as in the "the land of Israel". Whereas "the sea" meant other nations. You have these interesting transitions through that book, moving from land to sea, Israel to Gentile, 144k to great crowd, etc.
_________________
Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'
www.anthonymathenia.com

PSACRAMENTO SAID

It is important to understand that, typically, in the bible when a person (human) met a "divine being", that it wasn't a very "pleasant" experience and they tended to be a bit intimidated by it.
The description of the transfiguration, Daniel's Son of Man, John's revelation, none of them are described as being "beautiful", but more along the lines of intimidating.
In regards to dragons, eastern cultures never viewed them as anything but divine omens of good luck and prosperity.
Of course the "winged serpents" of the central and southern American mythologies are "very nice" at all.
Perhaps Enoch's book of the watchers can help some in understanding who these "serpents" could have been.

AGUEST SAID



Unless they appear as "able-bodied" men, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), which they do to accommodate OUR weaknesses and limitations. In such instances where they don't, folks have been known to faint, as well as soil themselves. I myself thought I was going to have a heart attack the first time I saw our Lord. NOTHING even CLOSE to what I saw was what I had imagined/been prepared for! It was SO alarming... that when he asked me if I was "ready" to see him again (because he quickly took his image away), I responded... honestly... "NO, Lord!" I felt ashamed, true, because I thought I should have been able to do it again, but I knew I couldn't. It was WAY too much for me to bear at the time.

Since then, he has graduated his appearance such that I COULD bear it. But it took a couple years, truly me. And I was absolutely "intimidated" before each time. I had to talk myself up to being "ready," actually.

Isaiah wasn't lying when he wrote:

"So shall He startle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; Forwhat had not been told them they shall see, ." Isaiah 52:15

Never before had this verse made so much sense to me! Like many I always applied it our Lord's appearance after he was scourged. Then I learned that, like a great many things related to him, it had two fulfillments that most DON'T understand: how he appeared by the time they came to arrest him (because of the "sins" he had taken into his body!), but even more... how he actually looks!

There is a reason why God... and thus Christ... is not concerned with the outward appearance! 1 Samuel 16:7; Matthew 22:16; Galatians 2:6

It is not our Lord's "outer garment" or "robe" that the Most Holy One of Israel was ever concerned with - it was and is what exists IN him.

I hope this helps... and, again, peace to you!

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID

Wow aguest

Thank you for that understanding of Isaiah 52: 13-15
I too remember that as to his appearance prior to his death. But when he returns wow!!!!! Ya!!!!

with love to you and the "fam"
justmom

RED SAID

Thank you for this enlightening post on the scriptures regarding the appearance. Makes you think... Dragons....

AGUEST SAID

You are both quite welcome, dear Mom and Prana (peace to you, both... and WELCOME, dear Prana!).
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

ANTHONY SAID

The earliest Christian writings in the second century indicate that the human appearance of Christ was ugly/loathsome. They tied this back to Isaiah's prophecy.
_________________
Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'

PSACRAMENTO SAID





We should be careful with taking what was written in the second century because of some of the gnostic influence being exerted in some of the texts we have.
To the gnostics, what was "earthly" and "matter" was corrupt and "ugly" and only what was spiritual was 'correct and beautiful" but we know that from the writings of the OT and NT, that the world was created "good" and God was pleased (up until the fall).
There were no comments made on Our Lord's appearnce in the Gospels, or the Epsistles and, perhaps more importantly, the writings of those that criticized and persecuted christians in the first couple of centuries.
With physical deformation being a "sign" of cured by the God(s) in not only Judaisim but the pagan religions also, I am sure that if Christ had been THAT deformed it would have been stated as evidence for his being "evil", "cursed" or whatever else.