xjwsforChrist

The issues with Christ being the HS and the HS being Christ is, was that ALWAYS the case?
Was the HS of God in the OT Christ?
Was the HS that ascended on Christ, Christ?
If Christ was the HS, why tell his followers He was sending someone?

Now, realize that the Trinity doctrine answers those questions by stating that CHrist and the HS are also in Perfect union, which means where the HS is, Chirst is, what the HS does, Christ Does, When Christ gives the HS to His followers, He is giving HIMSELF to them, so they can " be in Him as He is in them and as He is in the Father".

That Father/Son/HS share the same nature and are ONE address the issue of "who does what" and that they are also distinct addresses the issues of Christ being annointed by the HS ( as an example).

One of the issues with the HS being Jesus (as opposed to being in perfect union with) is Luke 1:35 where:

Luke 1:35
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the [a]holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

If the HS is what "creates" the Son of God in Mary, how can it also be the son of God?
One can argue that the passage may mean that the HS is now IN Mary and is Born flesh of Mary but then we have to address the following:
Was there no HS being active while Christ lived? ( the answer MAY be yes)?
Who came down upon Christ at His baptism?

Tammy, it was Shelby who introduced the thought that she identified her philosophy with binitarian thought. I'd never thought of it before.

I agree with her, though. That system of thinking and believing is transparently binitarian, as is your own. Probably, like me, you had never thought of the term before. I certainly hadn't, and in fact before you yourself described your beliefs to me before I joined the forum, and together we decided we were each cool with the disparity between what we believed, I had never ever met anyone before who thought Christ was the Spirit.

Oh, Tammy, and I didn't say sarcastically that even an infant could understand. I pointed out, factually, that infants DO understand St Patrick's illustration of the Trinity via the little shamrock. When I was at school it was one of the stories told me when I was being taught about the four British patron saints. (St George, St Andrew, St David and St Patrick.)

I was just very surprised at Shelby's comment showing either that she didn't understand, or that she was being sarcastic and, as you say, snarky.

I was brought up to think the best of people, and chose to do just that.

Beautifully put and cogently argued, Paul.

Absolutely nothing to add!

Paul, THE Holy Spirit - a person, a being... as opposed to holy spirit, the life that pours from the father, through the son, and to us... so that we may all be one. Just like Pharoah owned the grain, and gave it to Joseph to distribute, so that the people who came to Joseph could have life.

That is the example that we have written down, that is simple enough for anyone to understand. The physical showing the spiritual.

Pharoah - God
Joseph - Christ
Grain - spirit/life that comes from God, through Christ, to all Christ chooses to give it to (from Pharaoh, through Joseph, to all those Joseph chooses to give it to)


Peace,
tammy

Char, binitarianism is thinking two persons under one 'godhead', and I have not seen anyone promoting that.

You go back and read the previous page, and you will see that the theory of trinitarianism only adds up to a binitarianism, and that is what I see Shelby was discussing... all in accordance to your views of trinitarianism. I will leave her to answer for herself, if she chooses.


Peace,
tammy

So, according to that analogy, the HS is a "thing" that is given from God ( The father) through the Son to whom the Son chooses.
Is that what you are saying?

Tammy, odd that you didn't get this, since you quoted it, if I'm not mistaken, even in your own post a little earlier.

Shelby wrote:



Bi-une, not tri-une, is from Shelby. And from you, to me: that the Spirit comes from Christ...only you will have said "the Christ".

However, although like Paul Sacramento I have not one but two theological graduate qualifications, yet such is Shelby's attitude that my words are not sufficient for her, but fortunately Paul has added his weight to our patient explanation of the Trinity. You, too, will hopefully understand if you re-read it all, maybe a couple of times.

Char,
While I may understand and am able to explain the Trinity doctrine, I should point out that I believe it is in need of reforming.
I think that it is far to confusing for laypeople that way it is explained and falling back on "its a mystery" is wrong.
Yes, I believe that Father, Son and HS are One.
They share the same nature and that nature is GOD.
I don't think that the passages that state Christ's "sameness" with The Father and passages that show the HS as far more than a "force" or "thing" can be addressed outside of a "triune" understanding of God.
I just thing that a doctrine that was developed with Hellenistic influences for people versed in Hellenistic culture, needs "reforming" for Today.

The Holy Spirit is Christ, a Person.

Holy spirit, the life that the son gives to us so that we are all one (God in Christ, and Christ in us, so that we are all one... which would be far more than a trinity, lol), flows from the father, through the son, to those the son chooses to give it to. Like the "rivers of life". So holy spirit is life, and if life is described as a thing, then I guess it would be a thing.

Peace,
tammy

[Disclaimer: a LOT to read here... but it you have the time... and truly wish to understand what the "trinity" teaching is... please continue. If not, no worries - it is never anything other than a choice. Peace to you all!]



Then perhaps someone should tell the Catholic Church, dear P (morning and peace to you!)... starting with the Vatican. Because they and their Catechism say it IS a mystery, indeed THE mystery OF the Church:



Taken directly from the Catholic Catechism, linked here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P17.HTM#1FT

So, I am not the one who says it's a mystery, dear one. Those who perhaps you follow say it is.

I do find it interesting that they ALSO say "God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself." First, if ALL three are "God"... shouldn't that say, "God alone can make it know to us by revealing themselves"?? Since all three are "God" and "God" is not ONE Person... but THREE? Yet, this statement indicates that He IS One... Person. One... self. HIM... self. As it states.

Also, to say so regardless of whether one OR three is interesting... when it is the SON who reveals all things ABOUT the Father... so as to make Him KNOWN to us. As it is the FATHER who reveals the SON. Even so, some... perhaps including you... say the Holy Spirit (a separate entity) does that. Here, though, it appears that only the FATHER (part of the "Trinity") reveals the Father. Where does THAT come from, though, given Isaiah's prophecy that it WOULD be the Son who would reveal the Father:

"Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of JaHVeH been revealed?" Isaiah 53:1 NIV

After which he goes on the explain WHO...

And what of the SON who said:

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom [i]the Son chooses to reveal him[/i]." Matthew 11:27

I fear for both you AND dear Char... that somehow you have allowed yourselves to succumb to a form of sleep brought on by the lofty opinings, speculations, and dogma of MEN... which opinings, speculations, and dogma have caused you to do what dear John warned us NOT to do... and that is leave what we (the Body) was given in the BEGINNING. Both the Prophets AND Christ said that HE would reveal God to the people. Now, though, some men have come along, and after "centuries" of trying to force THEIR beliefs on God's sheep... have all but made it LAW... that that Son is NOT the One... but "God". Where, though, do YOU see, in Christ's words... that either the Father OR some other third "Person" was to reveal the MOST HOLY One of Israel to mankind? It states that the NO ONE knows the Father... not even some "third" Person of a trinity... EXCEPT the SON... and those whom the SON... CHOOSES... to reveal HIM to.

Not reveal "THEM" to. Not reveal "HIMSELF" to. Just as he commended Peter, JAH is the One who reveals the Son - hence, no man can come to the SON... unless the FATHER draws him (Matthew 16:17; John 6:44). Likewise, NO ONE can come to the FATHER... except THROUGH the Son (John 14:6). Where, though, is a "third" Person in EITHER of these two truths? Our Lord did not say that no one could come to him... "unless the Father AND the Holy Spirit draws them." Nor did he say that "No one comes to the FATHER except through him AND the Holy Spirit." No, that's not what he said.



See, here's where you are mistaken as to ME, dear P. When my Lord first starting working with ME, he said I had to let go of EVERYTHING I (thought I) "knew"... about him, God, holy spirit, the Bible, etc. I had to tear it ALL THE WAY DOWN to the "Foundation and it's Cornerstone." Meaning, ALL the way back down to him... and Apostles. Keep NOTHING that came about after him and them. And then... let HIM "build." So, I not only let go of the Trinity, but I ALSO let go of the teaching that it was wrong. I didn't know EITHER way. So... I let it ALL go. Back down to him, first, then what the Apostles taught. And Paul... was not one of the 12. So... I had to let "Paul" go, too.

However, my Lord told me that all FALSE teachings contain SOME truth. HAS to... else NO ONE would listen. That is the meaning of the phrase, "Satan KEEPS transforming himself into an angel of LIGHT." Because there are some things that APPEAR true... because of some "truth" related to it. But that if I wanted to know THE truth... and ALL truth... I could NOT rely on what was written in the scriptures (unless HE told me it was accurate)... and CERTAINLY not on the opinings, speculations, and dogma of MEN. Which is what the "trinity" teaching is.

In that light, I must say to YOU that it is JUST as hard to let go of the "brainwashing" and dogma of the Catholic Church... as it is of any OTHER church/religion. ALL of them foment "strongly entrenched things"... that are error and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... OR His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).



And that is an error, dear one. The Father and Son share the same nature... as to ALL spirit beings. Just different AMOUNTS of that "nature." JAH... the MOST of it. The Son, next. Then the cherubs. Then other spirit beings. Then us. Then beasts. We ALL have the same underlying "nature" - spirit. We of THIS world, however, have a SECONDARY "nature" - the flesh (with its blood) - with "nature" is an enemy of our TRUE nature, the spirit!

Our ERROR is in putting the SECOND nature FIRST... when we were supposed to follow the first. Adham SOLD that first nature... into capitivity to the second nature. Christ bought it BACK... with the blood of HIS first nature: HOLY spirit. So that, at some point we can TURN AROUND... and return BACK to that first nature: as sons of GOD, which we the seed ARE. And not as sons of the (surrogate) men we were entrusted to while awaiting the defeat of our enemies in the spirit realm.

How can be a SON of God... and NOT BE OF THE SAME NATURE AS GOD???

And, yet, if I were to say that we, too, are "God"... some would howl. Even though that will one day be TRUE. Just as Christ is in union with God, and of His nature... we, too, can be in union with God... and of His nature... by means of a union with CHRIST... who "begets" us... in HIS nature... which is the SAME as God's. That's why the MOST Holy One of Israel SAID "You will be called Gods!" Because we will be ONE with them... as they are with one another!

But that union is not with a "third" person identified as "the Holy Spirit." That Holy Spirit is Christ. The UNION... is WITH Christ, so as to be one with HIM... and so WITH God so as to be one with HIM, THOUGH Christ... by MEANS of holy spirit. By means of... BLOOD. BLOOD is what forms the UNION. BLOOD is what makes one a SON. Although one can be CALLED a son, and maybe even considered "just as" or "as good as"... that sonship can also be DENIED. But when one is a son BY BLOOD... there can be no denial! ALL must recognize it... and ESPECIALLY if the mother is a WIFE. Which our mother, Jerusalem Above... or "Sarah"... the "Woman" whose seed we ARE... is! A FREE... and LOVED wife... versus a concubine, a slave wife... or a one night stand.



WE give. Yes. And that is the problem, dear one. WE gave it that term/name. NOT the MOST Holy One of Israel... and NOT His Son. Both He and that Son gave us a NAME. We, though, because of NOT having a union with Him and because of NOT adhereing to what HE said, versus what man says... have had to come UP with a way to "explain"... "God." Which was unnecessary from the very beginning, at least for us. For that Son... made [God's] name KNOWN to us... we, the men God GAVE him... out of the world. John 17:6-8



It took centuries, dear one... because it's a LIE. TRUTH does NOT take centuries to "develop." TRUTH... does not NEED to be "developed." Truth IS. It is lies that must be "developed," dear one. And which take "so long." Why? Because there are always those to who speak against them, stand against them... "act as a restraint" against them... and they must be taken out of the way. So that the lie CAN "develop." Sadly (or perhaps mercifully!), it TAKES centuries to get rid of those who stand FAST in the truth... get them out of the way [of lies].

They are removed, though, by bloodshed. And you cannot deny that the Catholic Church has her hands COVERED in blood. Why do you think she was PUTTING folks to death? For opposing her? Yes! But NOT with lies and heresies, dear one - with TRUTH. And so, starting after the old Jewish system, "she"... the Catholic Church... was the FIRST "daughter" of the Harlot. Many more have come since, though, with the WTBTS being the latest.



That's not actually what it states, though, is it? John said Christ was in JAH (he was!) and was "divine". As they both ARE. And he was AGAIN. The SAME is said of us, though, yes? We are baptized INTO Christ, INTO his BODY, so that we are now IN UNION and so ONE with him, yes? And by means of such union can even know his mind, yes? And HE said that by being in union and one with HIM... we are in union and ONE... WITH THE FATHER. Yes?

So, John was accurate, yes! But that STILL doesn't add on a "third" person - you STILL only have TWO. Unless you add Christ's... BODY. Which you HAVE to do. As how can only a man' HEAD be in union... and not his BODY??



YES!!! YES!!! YES!!! CHRIST... is the Holy Spirit and Advocate/Comforter/Helper/Paraclete... and GIVES holy spirit (the breath, blood, semen... LIFE... of God)... to his followers (and thus God's followers). It does not say that the Holy Spirit, a "third" person... is the advocate, etc., and gives holy spirit to his followers. And there is not "the", dear one. Check your Greek, please!

And Christ GOT those followers... FROM God; NOT from HIMSELF:

"Father... I have made your name known... to the men YOU GAVE me out of the world. They were YOURS and you GAVE them to ME. They have now come to KNOW that all the things YOU GAVE ME... ARE FROM YOU." John 17:6, 7



Once he was glorified... and RECEIVED the kingdom, his INHERITANCE... then he WAS God, dear one. He was "Pharaoh"! But, just as in Egypt... you still only have two: Pharaoh... and Joseph. No third person.



Are you SURE that's the only reason the doctrine came to be? Simply that? Are... you... SURE? Remember, there is one who "keeps transforming HIMSELF into angel... of Light". But he is NOT a "messenger" (angel) of the Light, not at ALL. Hence, "false christs and false prophets WILL arise... to MISlead... IF possible... EVEN the chosen ones." Whose interest do YOU think such false christs and falsee propehts SERVE??

Even so, their "cultural context" and addressing Christ's nature was UNNECESSARY. He TOLD them what his nature was! The Apostles said what his nature was: SPIRIT. And what is spirit? Pure energy... such that it does not require mass to exist. To live... and breath. Which is why, although Einstein's theory of relativity (E=MC2) works in THIS world, is accurate as to the PHYSICAL world... if falls way, way, short... as to the spirit realm... and what God (and Christ and ALL spirits, including us) TRULY are.

WE are a form of energy that manifests in MC2,yes. But that is because of the "carbon" that is our flesh. Taken FROM this world. We are ALSO a form of energy... PURE energy, but less, MUCH less, than God/Christ... that is NOT of this world. We, though, because we are ALSO mass... because we also possess a DIFFERENT nature... one that enslaves us... keep trying to "explain" God (and Christ) within the limitations of OUR understanding, BASED on that secondary nature. But OUR understanding... is LIMITED!

So, how CAN we explain THEM? We can't... unless we let THEM explain them... and then LISTEN to that explanation, put FAITH in it... even if it is (currently) beyond our understanding. FAITH says they WILL make it clear at some point. Christ said, "I will come to you... and PLAINLY show myself to you!"

What more do we NEED, then... than HIS word? Isn't that what faith IS? Thing is, how many of us truly HAVE faith... IN his word? How many truly have faith in HIM... so as to PUT faith in his word, in what he SAID he would do?



If it's not perfect, it's not truth. If it's not clear, then it might not BE truth. However, can we truly justify our own beliefs that are NOT perfect and/or clear... yet take great issue with the imperfect and unclear teachings of others (say, the WTBTS), as some here do? Isn't that hypocrisy? If we deign to take such issue, should we not take care to make sure that what WE teach IS perfect (truth) and IS clear?



Perhaps, but TWO wrongs don't add up to a right, dear one. And some might say that some of THEIR (JW) teachings give a more accurate view of things related to God and Christ than any other doctrine, as well. Still doesn't make it TRUE. MORE accurate... than a lie... isn't necessarily accurate. It's just less INaccurate.

I hope this helps, dear one, truly. Because I truly believe you WANT to know... in which case, you DESERVE to know.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

So?

Theologians are just more 'voices' competing with the voice of our Lord. We can listen to theology (written by men), or scholars (more men)... or we can listen to Christ.

Perhaps remember Christ's own words at Matt 11:25

At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.


Peace,
tammy

PaulS says...

It took "centuries" to develop the Trinity doctrine because of the cultural issues of the different peoples.

just think that a doctrine that was developed with Hellenistic influences for people versed in Hellenistic culture, needs "reforming" for Today


Paul...

I understand that individuals depending on where they are in their spiritual growth may need time to digest and understand " TRUTH"...

But TRUTH never needs reforming does it? And why would TRUTH need centuries to develop?
Truth is the same day, yesterday and tomorrow. It is man that changes it. And we learned that in the WT with their " new light" .

I do see that what is written can cause confusion. I do understand that Jah and Christ are of the same essence as the son came out of the father. That the holy spirit is the breath, blood, semen, water, wind, life force that comes from them. I do see CHRIST emptied himself to come to earth and then asked to be glorified as The Holy Spirit, as the one that would come after he left the earth to be with us always until the conclusion of the days. Teaching us, conversing with us, disciplining us, comforting us, begging for us, as this Glorified being, the same one that he mentioned in John 17:5.
" Father GLORIFY me alongside yourself with the GLORY that I HAD alongside you BEFORE the world was."
My understanding is that before the creation of the universe that came into existence through Him which took much energy and power out of his to do this, he was the Holy Spirit THEN with the father.

Just a thought
Justmom

I do want to make something clear and this is something that sometimes gets lost and that is that anyone ability to understand God, whether Triune or not, has NOTHING to do with their salvation or their ability to hear Christ.

Human doctrine, like the Trinity, is an attempt to put into words issues that have arisen over the centuries.

That Christ saves and judges and is our Salvation goes against the core of Hebrew OT teachings, unless Christ is God.
That the HS saves and that the HS is our advocate means He is either God or Christ or both.