xjwsforChrist

Non-Religious Christian Spirituality
It is currently Mon Apr 27, 2026 9:15 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 327 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 22  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3403
Paul, I have to keep changing that to Psac, when we are actually discussing Paul who was Saul... because i'm sure it gets confusing at times, lol.



Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:49 pm 
Quote:
Just an FYI, that passage from Paul is one of the most contested by scholars and many are of the opinion that it was an extrapolation from a source other than Paul.


Of course it's one of the most contested. Christianity is about growing in number. When you have Scripture that excludes female contribution you limit your potential growth. Naturally, there is going to be one's trying to spin the Scripture as to open up the church to a flood of new membership. What results are two classes who battle it out to the bitter end. One class sees itself as a defender of Scripture and the other the progression of the church. Immovable object meets unstoppable force, the fundamental elements of creation.

-Sab


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
sabastious wrote:
Quote:
Just an FYI, that passage from Paul is one of the most contested by scholars and many are of the opinion that it was an extrapolation from a source other than Paul.


Of course it's one of the most contested. Christianity is about growing in number. When you have Scripture that excludes female contribution you limit your potential growth. Naturally, there is going to be one's trying to spin the Scripture as to open up the church to a flood of new membership. What results are two classes who battle it out to the bitter end. One class sees itself as a defender of Scripture and the other the progression of the church. Immovable objects meets unstoppable force, the fundamental elements of creation.

-Sab

No, because it goes against what Paul says everywhere else and in particular Romans where He acknowledges various women.
Women as his Equals and apostles:


Greetings and Love Expressed

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a [a]servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; 2 that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the [b]saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, [c]and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4 who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; 5 also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from [d]Asia. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. 7 Greet Andronicus and [e]Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also [f]were in Christ before me. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. 10 Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord. 12 Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them. 15 Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the [g]saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and [h]hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own [i]appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting. 19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

21 Timothy my fellow worker greets you, and so do Lucius and Jason and Sosipater, my kinsmen.

22 I, Tertius, who write this letter, greet you in the Lord.

23 Gaius, host to me and to the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the city treasurer greets you, and Quartus, the brother. 24 [[j]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.]

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 866
tec wrote:
For the record... I need no symbol, and I have no symbols. Why would I need a symbol to remind me of Christ, when He IS with me in spirit?


I would also like to make an observation... that this topic... an excellent topic by the way... has been derailed INSTEAD of dealing with the topic raised. By ad hominem, and completely off topic remarks about the faith of other people.

If you have something to say about the topic, and can back it WITH something other than ad hominem... then again, do so. Otherwise, you are fooling yourself if no one can see that tactic for what it is. A lack of rebuttal... and so a distraction from the truth instead. A tactic we should all be well aware of, because it was used by a certain group of people elsewhere.

Just sayin.


Peace,
tammy


Ad hominem? You mean the spiteful tactic you and Shelby and justmom use again and again.

You find fault with me when I learn from observation and experience and change my mind.

Justmom makes play with a pain Sab has, a despicable and spiteful manipulative emotional tactic of which you should be ashamed, justmom.

In 18 years of Internet experience I have never once encountered such a spiteful, mean-spirited group. Of people.

And you say you are following Christ. You are not doing that at all. Not only do you substitute a voice in your heads for Jesus, you insult and mock those who treat his Cross with reverence, pretending that makes it an idol, and you even go so far as to deny his name, Jesus.

No point in telling you you should be ashamed.you are beyond shame, and you smugly hold tight to yourselves your own superiority.

It's disgusting.

And don't pretend that someone telling the harsh truth is indulging in ad hominem,Tammy. It's just disgusting.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:07 pm
Posts: 2474
sabastious wrote:
Quote:
Sab, Define superiors? Are you referring to YOU as her superior?


Yes, and she's defying my orders again.

-Sab



Sab, now your scaring me????

Do you ear yourself and what you are saying???

Sab, you may need to take a break, back away, look in the mirror and see who it is that you are reflecting. It is not CHRIST, it is not LOVE and it is not TRUTH!!!

You are not going to win anybody over with this kind of thinking. Well, at least not the ones that you really are seeking to devour. We belong to CHRIST, we hear and follow HIM!

Defying your orders.....?????? Come on Sab, take a break. Get control of this. It has consumed you my brother.

We love you
Justmom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3403
Yeah... what Paul just said... (both of them, lol)


Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:10 pm 
Quote:
No, because it goes against what Paul says everywhere else and in particular Romans where He acknowledges various women.


That's the spin I was talking about. What Paul is saying that in the context of teaching and leading woman are to be silent and listen to the men. This was never meant to demean women, but to describe their position in the religious scheme of things. Take for example the qualifications for deacons spelled out in Paul's 1st letter to Timothy:

Quote:
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach


How a leader treated his wife was used as criteria for leadership qualifications. It was a man-centric world much in the way that modern Islamic countries are today. The women simply submit to their position relative to the man. Back then, "be silent, woman" was not an uncommon nor shocking statement at all.

Look, I don't really believe that women shouldn't be leaders or contribute to society other than birth children, but Paul sure did (and he is not only called an Apostle, but THE Apostle). I do believe that, as women, they should approach the concept of leadership differently than a man, however. They simply have different biological makeup. In this day in age, however, we have pharmaceuticals and medical technology that can ease mood swings that women often are subject to, especially later in life.

The question is how can Christian's reconcile their divergence? Is morality really tied to technology like that? I believe so, and that's why science should be consulted first before Scripture. Because technological advancements must be accounted for before using ancient text as some sort of compass or foundation to work from. That way you don't severely oppress certain parts of your population that were given brutal treatment in the past.

Seeing that you have a middle aged women on this forum identifying the eternal sin for certain individuals, paraphrasing 1 Corinthians 14:34 seemed the only apt response.

Quote:
Defying your orders.....?????? Come on Sab, take a break. Get control of this. It has consumed you my brother.


Come on now, don't make me pull out 1 Corinthians 14:34 again.

-Sab


Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:09 pm
Posts: 553
Location: I dare you to close your eyes...
Image

_________________
To fear me is to love me....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3403
Quote:
Ad hominem? You mean the spiteful tactic you and Shelby and justmom use again and again.


Quote:
You find fault with me when I learn from observation and experience and change my mind.


Absolutely not. You have missed the point.

I do not find fault with you for changing your mind according to your experience, observation, etc.

I find fault with you blaming others for the things that you have SAID, yourself, before you changed your mind. For you pretending that you never said them. Your words contradict, and then you blame others for what you have shown them.

Before we go further... I am talking about you blaming others for their understanding of your words BEFORE you made your correction.

Quote:
Justmom makes play with a pain Sab has, a despicable and spiteful manipulative emotional tactic of which you should be ashamed, justmom.


Or justmom was extending empathy and sympathy. Sab himself did not take offense... until after YOU took offense. Telling, that.

Though this does not stop you from judging her so harshly.

Quote:
In 18 years of Internet experience I have never once encountered such a spiteful, mean-spirited group. Of people.


If that is what you think... then why are you here? Truly?

You like people who are not against the RCC (which is odd, though Sab is not owning up to it, he made the worst pronouncements and judgments against the RCC than anyone here... I just have not transferred that thread onto the board because it is so long... and after so much time, i did not want to stir that pot again... but it is saved on my computer so that i can if need be) People are loving if they are not against the RCC. But anyone speak against that organization... and they are spiteful, mean-spirited, disgusting, reckless, unloving, etc.

Quote:
And you say you are following Christ. You are not doing that at all. Not only do you substitute a voice in your heads for Jesus, you insult and mock those who treat his Cross with reverence, pretending that makes it an idol, and you even go so far as to deny his name, Jesus.


See, this is what you truly think... that we are not following Christ. You just didn't used to come out and say it openly... but now you are doing so. Again... we have not changed; but you have.

Quote:
No point in telling you you should be ashamed.you are beyond shame, and you smugly hold tight to yourselves your own superiority.


Quote:
It's disgusting
.

Quote:
And don't pretend that someone telling the harsh truth is indulging in ad hominem,Tammy. It's just disgusting.


Here is the hypocrisy.

We cannot speak the 'harsh truth' against your RCC... without you resorting to personal attacks on our faith (has to be on our faith because there is no religion between us and Christ). But you can tell the 'harsh truth'... and it is okay. Note though, that your harsh truth is your opinion. The deeds and teachings of the RCC speak for themselves, and are not in line with what CHRIST has said as written.

Those are things for which there has been no defense. Your own words... have said... that you left because of the great wrongs that your church has done, locally, and in the world.


Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 866
Quote:
Defying your orders.....?????? Come on Sab, take a break. Get control of this. It has consumed you my brother.


You appal me, justmom.

And what's all this my brother, my sister business we're getting now? First time I noticed it was a few weeks ago when I saw you use it with Armand,who also uses it.

I'm guessing it's a JW thing.

You called me "my sister" a week or so ago. Please don't call me that again. I am not your sister.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 866
YppuplleH wrote:
Image


Nice!

Are hedgehogs the same both sides of the Atlantic?

For one moment there, until the head came up, I thought it was a Tribble! :D


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 866
tec wrote:
Quote:
Ad hominem? You mean the spiteful tactic you and Shelby and justmom use again and again.


Quote:
You find fault with me when I learn from observation and experience and change my mind.


Absolutely not. You have missed the point.

I do not find fault with you for changing your mind according to your experience, observation, etc.

I find fault with you blaming others for the things that you have SAID, yourself, before you changed your mind. For you pretending that you never said them. Your words contradict, and then you blame others for what you have shown them.

Before we go further... I am talking about you blaming others for their understanding of your words BEFORE you made your correction.

Quote:
Justmom makes play with a pain Sab has, a despicable and spiteful manipulative emotional tactic of which you should be ashamed, justmom.


Or justmom was extending empathy and sympathy. Sab himself did not take offense... until after YOU took offense. Telling, that.

Though this does not stop you from judging her so harshly.

Quote:
In 18 years of Internet experience I have never once encountered such a spiteful, mean-spirited group. Of people.


If that is what you think... then why are you here? Truly?

You like people who are not against the RCC (which is odd, though Sab is not owning up to it, he made the worst pronouncements and judgments against the RCC than anyone here... I just have not transferred that thread onto the board because it is so long... and after so much time, i did not want to stir that pot again... but it is saved on my computer so that i can if need be) People are loving if they are not against the RCC. But anyone speak against that organization... and they are spiteful, mean-spirited, disgusting, reckless, unloving, etc.

Quote:
And you say you are following Christ. You are not doing that at all. Not only do you substitute a voice in your heads for Jesus, you insult and mock those who treat his Cross with reverence, pretending that makes it an idol, and you even go so far as to deny his name, Jesus.


See, this is what you truly think... that we are not following Christ. You just didn't used to come out and say it openly... but now you are doing so. Again... we have not changed; but you have.

Quote:
No point in telling you you should be ashamed.you are beyond shame, and you smugly hold tight to yourselves your own superiority.


Quote:
It's disgusting
.

Quote:
And don't pretend that someone telling the harsh truth is indulging in ad hominem,Tammy. It's just disgusting.


Here is the hypocrisy.

We cannot speak the 'harsh truth' against your RCC... without you resorting to personal attacks on our faith (has to be on our faith because there is no religion between us and Christ). But you can tell the 'harsh truth'... and it is okay. Note though, that your harsh truth is your opinion. The deeds and teachings of the RCC speak for themselves, and are not in line with what CHRIST has said as written.

Those are things for which there has been no defense. Your own words... have said... that you left because of the great wrongs that your church has done, locally, and in the world.


Peace,
tammy


Tough. I'm not playing your favourite game of ding dong.

Boring. Not interested.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:15 pm
Posts: 5133
Quote:
So.... why did Christ choose Paul then


"When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of holy spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and [Jesus] standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

"At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

"Saul approved of their killing him."

"Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

“Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


That's why. But then you knew that...

A slave of Christ,

SA


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3403
Chariklo wrote:
Quote:
Defying your orders.....?????? Come on Sab, take a break. Get control of this. It has consumed you my brother.


You appal me, justmom.

And what's all this my brother, my sister business we're getting now? First time I noticed it was a few weeks ago when I saw you use it with Armand,who also uses it.

I'm guessing it's a JW thing.

You called me "my sister" a week or so ago. Please don't call me that again. I am not your sister.


By your own words... Char... by your own words.


As for calling people brothers and sisters... I would urge to read as to what those who followed Christ from the start... called one another. For we have many brothers and sisters in Christ.


Couple examples from 1Corinth:

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sostheenes

I appeal to you, brothers...

My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me tha tthere are quarrels among you...

From 2 corinth

Paul, an apostle of Christ jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother

We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered...

From galatians

.. and all the brothers with me...

I want you to know, brothers...


Do I really need to continue?

Just who is it that you are fighting for, Char? And who is it that you are fighting against?

Are you sure that you know?


I mean, you are even defending Sab using the written words attributed to Paul in order to order women into silence? Saying that they should respect HIS authority?

Perhaps you need a breather Char... to get some perspective... though best would be to just look at and listen to Christ, Himself... even if that is just what He is written to have said, rather than in spirit. Some things you are saying and defending are incomprehensible, Char. Truly, they are.

Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:09 pm
Posts: 553
Location: I dare you to close your eyes...
Chariklo wrote:
YppuplleH wrote:
Image


Nice!

Are hedgehogs the same both sides of the Atlantic?

For one moment there, until the head came up, I thought it was a Tribble! :D


Yep the same ;)

*floats on by in my innertube*

When everybody is done being mean give me a ring :)

*puts on headphones and dog paddles leisurely*

_________________
To fear me is to love me....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 327 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 22  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 84 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group