AGUEST SAID
Quote:
Quote:
Homosexuality is part of humanity's genetic makeup. God created genetics and therefore he created homosexuality. John 1:1 packages all of creation into the word "things." The Greek word used is "pas" which means specifically every thing. That would mean that the Word of God created all people, places, things and ideas. Your little English lesson falls flat and distracts from the issue at hand. (golfclap)
Suffice it to say, I disagree, dear Sab (peace to you!). I won't go into why... again... because my previous statements of why I disagree are sufficient, IMHO.
Quote:
Quote:
My argument contained no errors. You just misunderstood it and then wrongly discovered errors within your misunderstanding. Then you focused on that wrong information because you don't have any substantive argument that counters my points in this thread.
(Smile) Okay.
Quote:
Quote:
Yes he did, he created homosexuality along with ALL THINGS (Greek word: pas). The Bible is clear and succinct on this issue.
Well, then... why do we need to discuss further? You are convinced of this; I am not. You won't convince me, so... no need to waste more of each other's time on it, IMHO.
Quote:
All 47 times the Hebrew word "naur" is used in the Bible it's translated "youth."
Okay...
Quote:
Quote:
You NEVER say an infant is a youth, you say it's an infant.
However, one DOES say a youth is an infant, Sab.
Quote:
Quote:
The Bible isn't telling us that baby's are evil
I never said babies were evil, Sab.
Quote:
Quote:
it is saying that baby's are good and man, the instructor of babies, is evil from youth.
I disagree, but I don't have a problem if YOU believe this.
Quote:
Quote:
This would indicate that before a baby is taught the ways of men they are pure and unadulterated.
The statement regarding my Lord needing to learn to REJECT bad and CHOOSE good would seem to contradict that.
Q
Quote:
uote:
After child abuse the child is never the same.
I personally don't have a problem with that as I can see where child abuse MIGHT cause that. What, though, of the children who were never abused but just didn't CHOOSE good? Or those who WERE abused... but REJECTED bad?
Quote:
Quote:
You are misapplying that Scripture in Isaiah and using it to damn children, that's pretty messed up.
Damn children? Dear Sab... ALL of mankind are damned, per se. Not just children. If children were born perfect, there would have been NO need to wipe them out with the Flood... or at Sodom/Gomorrah. JAH could have preserved these alive (in the Ark) and entrusted them to other adults (besides Noah, etc.) who DID learn to choose good and reject bad.
Quote:
Quote:
It should be coupled with the Scripture in Genesis 8 because both speak about the evils of youth.
Couple it, then. By all means. Do what YOU need to... to make sense of what apparently does not, to you.
Quote:
Quote:
Isaiah elaborates on the same concept. Ignorance creates suffering which is evil. Before young ones are taught the difference between right and wrong they cannot be trusted to choose correctly.
We are not born with an innate understanding of right and wrong, we must be shown the difference.
Funny you should make that statement, because the only ones I know who started out PERFECT... DID have that innate understanding: Adham and Eve. Which is why THEIR error WAS so great: they KNEW the difference between good and bad... and RATHER than choosing good (life) and REJECTING bad (death)... the CHOSE bad. Get it? No, I don't think you will, even with that explanation. Sigh.
Quote:
Quote:
This is by design. They do not have a LEANING towards evil, they are just ignorant. This is really basic stuff, Shelby.
Sab, had Adham/Eve not passed ON what THEY did to their offspring, you would be right: their children WOULD have been borne perfect... and so with an innate understanding of right and wrong... and so the ability TO choose between the two, right from the start. Unfortunately, they PASSED on to their offspring an INABILITY to automatically choose between the two... and so, since Cain on, man has had to LEARN to choose one and reject the other.
This innately CREATES a leaning toward evil... but what is INHERITED is a leaning AWAY from God. Which is a leaning TOWARD evil. Can they help it? No. ALL initially lean away.
Quote:
Quote:
No, I never said that. I said that I have found it exceedingly difficult to preach the ideas I know to be true.
Okay. I understand your "pain."
Quote:
Quote:
The opposition comes from all directions.
I understand that "pain," as well.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think I am right because others think I am wrong, that would be fallacious thinking. I think I am right because I have studied really hard and am convicted of my hard earned conclusions. I work for knowledge, unlike people who just turn on their God telegraphs.
Perhaps that's the problem. I mean, I would think that if you WERE right, God would either draw folks to what you're saying... or you to Christ... or something to someone... or someone to something. Otherwise, what really is the point, dear Sab, truly?
Quote:
Quote:
The baby is born with the will to survive and needs to be shown the difference between right and wrong.
And without BEING shown... will choose... what? Please don't say good else what's the POINT in showing it the DIFFERENCE?
Quote:
Quote:
Children are naturally helpful.
Spoken like a true new father, with a child under the age of 10. SOME children are naturally helpful, dear one. Most... are not. Most are actually quite selfish. Why? Because SURVIVAL calls for selfishness.
We must have this discussion again, when your child is, say, 14...
Quote:
Quote:
It's not hard to teach them right from wrong, they just need their brains to mature in order to have the capacity to understand the difference between good and evil.
(Smile) So we WILL discuss this again, when your toddler is, say, 12? 14? 16? 4? 5?
Quote:
Quote:
Without that understanding they will do evil without understanding it's evil.
I don't disagree with that. But something YOU miss... is that ignorance doesn't absolve. Not in man's laws... or JAH's. Doesn't work that way, dear one, sorry.
Quote:
Quote:
This is ALL BY DESIGN by our creator (who would have thought!).
Dear Sab, if that's what you need to believe to be "okay" with whatever it is you need to be okay with... who am I to judge you? DO... YOU. But I know the MOST Holy One of Israel NOT to be designer of UNrighteousness. He did not "design" the flaws later shown in the Adversary, other rebellious spirits... or Adham, Eve, Cain, and others.
Quote:
Quote:
You feel compelled to avoid conversations with me because your lord has warned you about me.
You give yourself too much credit, dear one (surprise). He hasn't said one word about you... good or bad... yet. I haven't asked him about you because I have not considered you someone TO ask about. You never showed yourself "against" me, so I had no fear there. I don't FEEL compelled to ask about you now... because NOTHING you've stated says to ME that you are one I should... or shouldn't... listen to. I hear nothing, one way or the other, actually.
I PERCEIVE that you are still very young, though, and prone to tantrums when you feel you aren't being heard/believed or paid attention to. I personally don't care for dealing with folks like that... whether children or adult... and so I don't. Too... exhausting... and unfruitful, IMHO.
Quote:
Quote:
The ego gets rid of potential threats.
(Smile) You are not a threat Sab. Potential or otherwise. Truly. You're just a young guy who's a bit too smart for his own good... with some ideas and opinions. There's a WHOLE lot of folks like you out there, luv. Indeed, most in your age range fall into that category. Which is why young men like you are often recruited by radical, fanatical, and revolutionary movements. Then, you grow older (or your children do)... and you realize all of the "youthful" ideals you had were just that: youthful ideals. None of which have any basis in REAL spirituality... or any connection whatsoever to the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... or His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).
You're not unique, dear Sab, just because you're doing some thinking and having some "thoughts" as a result. I understand how that truth might pain you... but it's the truth. You are something - everyone is. But you are also nothing. As everyone else is, as well.
Quote:
Quote:
Who wants to wander alone?
Many, actually. But apparently you don't. So why insist on ideals that CAUSE you to, if you can't HANDLE it?
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, that's because you seek power and glory.
I don't even know how to respond to that, truly. I mean, you are certainly entitled to your opinion... but I sure would like to know where all that power and glory are. I mean, it would have been easy enough to acquire in THIS world... especially with a law degree. You can't imagine how people fall at your feet when they think you're an attorney. Obscene, almost. I sometimes even have to ASSERT to people that I am NOT an attorney. They just don't WANT to believe it!
Or, there's the whole charismatic preacher thing. Which I wouldn't even have to bust a sweat to do, given my own people's tendency and "need" to have a human "leader". They've been looking for a Harriet Tubman/MLK as long as I can remember. So, what, start out with a storefront for about $200/month (I live in Oakland, so... yeah, I could find something). I wouldn't even have to take it out of my own pay - I could sell cans and raise that. But I wouldn't have to - just hold a few meetings a week, pass around a plate... pontificate about how the "holy spirit" is speaking "through" me... lay on the hands a couple/few times a month... maybe utter a "prophecy" or "revelation" or two from time to time... which don't even need to be TRUE... and whatd'ya know: I'm living in a nice house and driving a nice car that I don't even have to pay for... getting government exemptions on my taxes... and holding sway over the minds, hearts... and lives... of a whole LOT of people.
Oh, wait, I can't do all of that, though, can I... 'cause I too BUSY... seeking power and glory. Where would I find the time?
Quote:
Quote:
You are a conqueror and the Bible was among your first conquests.
Ummmmmm... seems to ME that if I "conquered" the Bible, you and I wouldn't be quibbling over Isaiah 7...
Quote:
Quote:
I am not interested in your agreement, never have been.
Oh, please. If you weren't, you would have moved on from me. You would have said, "Oh, well, she can't/don't/won't receive what I'm offering her, so on to whoever next will." But no... nope. You NEED me to notice you, acknowledge you... agree with you. Now, maybe YOU'RE not ready to admit that... but it's very obvious, dear one.
Quote:
Quote:
What I have been interested is helping you see the colossal error of your ways. I set out with the full understanding that I had a very small chance of success.
And your chance has significantly decreased. So, please... consider me "lost." I have absolutely NO problem with that... because I was never seeking to be found by you (or Elohim). I found the One I was seeking... and have been found by him. That really IS enough for ME, dear one. Truly. Consider respecting that...?
Quote:
Quote:
Probability won in this case and I failed, so why can't you just avoid me like you said so?
Not sure what you meant. You addressed me. I mean, I COULD just blow you off (which I am very close to)... but you are making erroneous assertions that I feel I'd like to address. Why? Because, dear one, YOU are showing the error of your thinking far, far more than I EVER could.
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe success it's possible after all. But it will require that continue to go against your own word. When one makes too many promises they will eventually collide.
Hence, I make none... except to my Lord. So far, so good. I have faith, however, that he will direct my steps and thus "redirect" me should there be an obstacle in my path. So a collision isn't of concern to me. My path is narrow and dark, I openly admit. Praise JAH, I have One to guide me: a TRUE Light (John 1:8; 8:12). So far, he's not misled me ONE step. Now, I COULD listen to YOU... but WHY? Why listen to the voice of stranger when the one leading me is of a shepherd who loves me SO much, he literally gave HIS life for me? You haven't given me a doggone thing, Sab... except your opinions... based on your "extensive study" and personal thinking.
Yet, you think I should follow YOU. Really. No, thank you. Really. Don't be hurt. It's not a personal rejection of you, per se, but simply of who you AREN'T.
Quote:
Quote:
No contradiction, just more misunderstanding on your part. Which is understandable, sin is a concept that greatly evades your intellect. Sin is not something that MAKES us do anything. It doesn't make us lean towards anything, it's just a concept that describes the negative results of cause and effect. You get what you put into it. The World of Karma.
Okay. I don't think it is me who misunderstands sin, but... okay. No point in arguing it, though, IMHO.
Quote:
Quote:
Babies ARE born INTO sin, but they have no coherent inclination towards wrong. They do wrong, but they don't comprehend wrong.
I understand your position that sin only occurs when the one so committing understands it is sin. Now, I KNOW you won't understand this... or accept it... but the account of Job praying for his children is exactly what contradicts your... assumption, here:
"
And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and consecrate them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, "It may be that my children have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually." Job 1:5
I understand the point of this verse because my Lord explained it to me when he showed it to me. He showed it to me... when he explained how I was to act as a "priest" for MY household. What he explained was that MY prayers were "sacrifices" which I could also offer up on behalf of my children... IN CASE they sinned. Why "in case" they sinned? Because they might not even KNOW when they have sinned. Why might they not KNOW? Because traditions and cultures might say something IS a sin before JAH that is NOT... or is NOT but is before JAH.
The point? Ignorance is not what covers sin, Sab. BLOOD is what covers sin. And since I am offering up my prayers... MY "sacrifices"... on the basis of blood... my LORD'S blood... those "sacrifices" can COVER even the sins of my CHILDREN... on the SAME basis: HIS blood. EVEN if my children don't KNOW they've sinned.
Again, I don't expect YOU to understand this, now. I have NO doubt that you will once your child gets older, though. In that light, I have to say, here and now, that I do forgive you... and pray that when the time comes you are shown mercy... because you truly don't know what you're doing... and I truly would NOT wish the chagrin and embarassment that is to come upon you upon ANYONE, because the pain can be very great. But it WILL come and at that time may YOUR pain (of self revelation, understanding... and knowledge) be minimal.
Quote:
Quote:
Like I said they are ignorant so the wrongs they commit are unknown to them.
To them, yes. To the MOST Holy One of Israel... no. Not at all. They are written in His Book. Hopefully, they will have a proper "covering" when the time for it arrives.
Quote:
Quote:
However, they will commit more bad deeds than good ones until matured and properly instructed. It's not like baby's have an evil glint in their eyes. They are effected by the laws of cause and effect. Sin came into the world through a man and was taken out of the world by a man. This is because the laws of cause and effect are eternal and unavoidable.
THINK about what you're saying here, dear Sab... because it is TRUE... and negates virtually every other thought you have on the matter. Because the "man" who took them away, did so for the world, meaning anyone IN the world... who puts their faith in him and his blood. There's a whole lot of folks... and, unfortunately, their children... who don't "understand" this truth. That lack of understanding won't be an out for them, unfortunately.
Quote:
Quote:
Sin is a thing and therefore something that was created by the Word of God. God created the game and the game has boundaries. God also created pain and grief, but they are all temporary. They are in the process of "passing away." Ever heard of the term "necessary evil."? That's what the world of choice and cause and effect is all about. If there are no rules there is no game. Simple.
If you think this is all a game... wait, no, I understand why you think that. Most of your age think in terms of this "all" being "just a game." What you and they don't understand is that it attributed unrighteousness to the MOST Holy One of Israel. Let me ask you: would YOU, as a father, play games with YOUR child's life? You don't need to answer. Your answer, however, suggests that YOU... are not only a better father than the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... but more righteous.
Since you don't KNOW Him... I can see how viewing it all as a game would help you... accept... all that has occurred, is occurring, and will occur. Whatever helps you "float" YOUR "boat," dear Sab. But try not to be TOO surprised when the vessel sinks.
Quote:
Quote:
I said that science has proven that homosexuals are NOT incapable of being patriarchs and matriarchs. You seemed to have read what you wanted to read and then went on a useless and shameful tirade.
You are correct; I DID misread you... and I apologize for mistaking you. I truly thought I saw another Sab "contradiction" and did not see the word "not." I was tired (it was a long post... to read AND to respond to) and I most probably did have some issues with you by the time I got to that statement. Because you tire me... with your contradictions. SO much so that I saw one where one did not exist. I apologize not only for misreading your words but your insinuation here. No if, ands, or buts.
Q
Quote:
uote:
The fact is that your lord has been found desperately wanting and he claims to be the Word of God mentioned in John 1. As the originator of homosexuality, the Word of God would KNOW that it's not at all tied to psychology, but biology and genetics. He is wrong and that makes him fake. If he didn't claim divinity then it would be fine to make mistakes. If you think you can fill the shoes, by all means try, but when they don't fit step out of them and try on some that fit.
Sab, believe what you will... about me and/or my Lord. Please. But even if I stepped out of the shoes I am currently permitted to wear, I would NEVER step into the ones you seem to want me to wear. I will not deny my Lord, I will not credit myself, I do not know Elohim... nor do I wish to... and I do not reject the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, or His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).
Yours is the voice of a "stranger" and while I have absolutely NOTHING against you... it is NOT a voice I will follow. Ever. I am sorry YOU can't accept that. I am not sure why "homosexuality" is such a huge issue FOR you... but it is not an issue with ME... on ANY level. I... don't... care. I have no more thoughts about homosexuality as I do adultery, fornication, drunkeness, or any other matter viewed as "sin." It all just doesn't MATTER to me.
So, I am going to ask you... once again, as I asked you as Dave Perez and King Solomon (and thank you for answering that for me - your silence was answer enough)... let's agree to disagree and move on from one another. I am SURE there is SOMEONE out there willing to listen to you and able to hear and grasp your message. I am not such a person.
Please... accept that. Now, I don't know why the "god" you serve (Elohim) would cause you to have to hide your identity and post as different people... but I am sure he has his reasons (or you, yours). I am not hiding, though, as I believe everything that is hidden will be revealed. I have nothing TO hide... so WHY hide? You know who I am, where I am, what I do, what I look like, etc. I am open and honest with you... and everyone.
And so you can BELIEVE me when I say your's is the voice of a stranger than I do not recognize... and will not follow. So, please... please... STOP wasting your time with me. Consider me lost to you and your ideals... always. Just write me off, please. Consider me "dead," if you must. Whatever it takes. Consider your ideals rejected by me. And if it proves that I am wrong... I absolve YOU of any responsibility for that.
As for ME... I will continue to follow the One sent to ME... who speaks to ME: the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Son, Word, and Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and I can live with that choice. Truly. BELIEVE me.
Peace to you... and your household.
A slave of Christ,
SA
Login
Register
FAQ
Search
