xjwsforChrist

What dear tec has shared here, dear LQ (good morning and peace to you, both!) is the gist of what I had posted. You can "test" the "inspired expression":

1. As to what Christ himself says to you. And we ALL hear him, dear one. We just don't all RECOGNIZE that it's him or lend CREDENCE to him as the One speaking to us. For most, they call it everything BUT him ("I said to myself," "my conscience told me," "something said," "a little birdie told me," and more). I posted on that to a dear one on the old forum and thought I had transferred it here, but can't find it just now. Perhaps someone else knows where I "put" it and can post a link? If not, I will search for it and post the link before the weekend's over (hubby has "plans" for today so I most probably won't get to it sooner).

If you don't think you CAN hear him speak... or are not sure it's HIM... or don't think you can put FAITH in what you hear, then...

2. As dear tec pointed out... love is the next "measuring stick." If what you hear/are told/read, etc., is not founded in and on LOVE... then it CANNOT be from God OR Christ. CANNOT be. Rather, it is from some other "source," and should be rejected. How do we know that it MUST be founded in/on love? Because.... (1) God is love; (2) love is the Law's FULFILLEMENT; (3) there is NO law AGAINST love; (4) love COVERS a multitude of sins/transgressions; and (4) all that Christ said, did, and taught... was about, founded on, fomenting, and FOR love.

If you can't see the love in the matter, it should be rejected. If you can see love, but still can't reconcile the matter in YOUR heart, then...

3. As dear tec also pointed out... what is written... as to Christ (and so "scripture" - John 5:39, 40) and/or what HE said FIRST, and THEN perhaps as to the rest (or perhaps NOT, depending on what it's saying - i.e., to judge, stone, put to death, punish... anything that DOESN'T show love, mercy, forgiveness, pity, compassion, etc.).

Which "written" things are NOT necessarily what is in the Bible. Indeed, the Bible doesn't even contain ALL scripture - for example, what of the Book of Enoch? Jasher? Barak? The other "gospels" - Thomas, Barnabas, "of Mary", and others... and Paul's FIRST letter to the Corinthians (1 Corinthans 5:9; 2 Corinthians 13:1)? What about Bible versions that contain, say, Judit, Tobit, the Maccabees, the Apophrycal writings, etc.?

The Bible does contain SOME scripture (i.e., "the law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms" Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45, and so would include the Revelation and even some of the Proverbs)... but ALSO contains histories, records, chronologies, letters, etc. Even so, the "false stylus of the scribes" (hence, "Woe to you... scribes!") has tampered with so much, how can be sure even the SCRIPTURES are accurate? One cannot. This is why Christ is recorded to have said:

"You search the scriptures because you THINK that by means of THEM you will have everlasting last. And these are the very ones that bear witness about ME. Yet... YOU DO NOT WANT TO COME... TO ME... that you may have life." John 5:39, 40

The false pen of the scribes even changed verse 39 in the KJV so that it reads "Search the scriptures". But that is MISLEADING and a heinous error, which one could see if they looked up the Greek from which the translation is taken. If they did, they would find that Christ admonished his disciples NOT to search the scriptures... but to go directly to HIM. It was this, coming/going directly to HIM... that was the gist of folks lack of FAITH... then... and now. Then... and now... folks relied so HEAVILY on what was "written." But that's walking by SIGHT... not by FAITH. And so, he said to me:

"ALL that I tell you IS written, but not ALL that is written is what I will tell you."

What did he mean by that? That all that he says is written... but NOT necessarily in the Bible... and all that is written in the Bible is NOT necessarily what he would tell me. And I have found these things to be TRUE.

It all comes down to faith, dear one. And perhaps the following, from the letter to the Hebrews (which is NOT scripture, but contains truth and so CAN be considered, in the same manner as, for example, what some here share with you):

"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to [Jesus] the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

"See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who speaks to us from the heavens? At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain." Hebrews 12:24-28

Just because something ISN'T "scripture" doesn't mean it isn't TRUE. In the same vein, just because something IS scripture doesn't mean it IS true... and hasn't been tampered with. PAUL said that "all scripture... was beneficial"... yes. But did CHRIST say that? NO! HE literally condemned the "works" of the scribes, the copyists whose JOB it was was to maintain the integrity of the Writings, which they did NOT... even before the penning of the Septuagint, which was the "Bible" of my Lord's day in the flesh. HE said that HE was the truth that anyone who WANTED the truth... as to/from God... had to go through HIM to get it. (John 14:6)

PAUL wrote, before he knew bettter, that we are judge "those on the inside." CHRIST said, "STOP judging." And so Paul later recanted his admonishment re judging to the Corinthians congregation, as well as wrote to the Romans to "NOT be judging one another ANY LONGER." He changed his position... because he changed in his understanding. Because he was led... into the TRUTH about judging, that it was NOT for the Body of Christ to do so.

One has to choose who they will follow: man, including Paul... or Christ. Peter... or "Peter's successor"... or Christ. A "Govening Body"... or Christ.

If one follows Christ, then it is CHRIST... ALONE... that one listens to, dear LQ. Not Paul, not Peter, not Peter's successor, not some group that calls itself "the Faithful and Discreet Slave"... not me... not any here. Christ. If one does not [think they] hear, but wants to... one can ask for MORE faith. One can even ask for ears... for a "prepared body," as my Lord himself mentioned:

"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[c]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.[e]
I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.”
I proclaim your saving acts in the great assembly;
I do not seal my lips, JaHVeH,
as you know.
I do not hide your righteousness in my heart;
I speak of your faithfulness and your saving help.
I do not conceal your love and your faithfulness
from the great assembly.
Do not withhold your mercy from me, JaHVeH;
may your love and faithfulness always protect me." Psalm 40:6-11

I TRULY hope this helps you, dear LQ, what I and dear tec have shared with you here on the matter. Again, I will look for the post regarding hearing, but must ask your patience until it is found.

In the meantime, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of MY God and Father, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and the love and PEACE of His Son and Christ, my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... be upon you, if you truly WISH it! May He grant YOU ears to hear, if you wish them, when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water'[/color]... the holy spirit of God, which is His blood and the means by which He SPEAKS, through His Son, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit... to ALL mankind (Proverbs 8:4-7)... and which water/blood is poured out by that One, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE... if you truly WISH it! Revelation 22:17

Again, peace to you and your dear household!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

First, once again, thank you, Shelby.

And, thank you, tec.

As to testing the inspired expressions, I had surmised the "asking / listening", and internally, I knew that looking up the related verses would be part of it. However, the basing on love was a new thought. Thank you.



Whoa... I never thought of this quite in this way. This kinda puts the kabash on the whole JW disfellowshipping arrangement.


Interesting. I never considered reading Paul's letters and trying to apply them as following him. Or Peter for that matter. However, I guess it could be viewed this way. Reminds me of what he said to the Corinthians:

What I mean is this, that each one of YOU says: “I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·pol′los,” “But I to Ce′phas,” “But I to Christ.” The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he? Or were YOU baptized in the name of Paul? -- 1 Cor 1:12,13


What's the point of reading the Bible, then? Would it not introduce erroneous thoughts?


It does to a point. I do thank you both for sharing.


No problem. I will also try to find it. If I do, I'll let you know.


And to you and yours.

-LQ

Shelby, you had previously found the post on hearing and reposted it here:

http://xjwsforchrist.forumatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=436&p=10956&hilit=hearing#p10902

Just to say I've just been writing, though hadn't completed, a long point by point answer to Shelby's long, point by point post to me yesterday. And with a false move of my hand, as I edited and pruned it I managed to delete the whole lot. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. I am not pleased!

I'm not going to rewrite it all now. That must wait till tomorrow. But just to say, as I analysed what you wrote, Shelby, I saw how very much you and some others who think like you, having long since left the WT, are still thinking along those tramlines, and not just the JW tramlines, but all the same old stuff that first appeared with the Reformation. We can't call a priest or a Pope father? Because Christ said so? No he didn't. Look again, in Biblical context, using common sense and reason and not just JW or post-Reformation prejudice.

Talking with Christ isn't prayer? THINK, Shelby, as you said to me on page 3 of this thread.

The Watchtower, over and over again in its writings in book and magazine and so-called "Reasoning" book uses a woefully illogical method of reasoning where they ask a rhetorical question, immediately answer it themselves and then continue for at least that paragraph to write as if the point were actually so or had been proven by the mere negative. Shelby, please look at you long unanswered post to me on the previous page. I don't know if you realise it but you've fallen into the same trap several times.

I'm not going to rewrite an hour's writing now. I really hope you will look again at what you wrote and will see for yourself what you did and do. You make and made assumptions, over and over, and proceed as if they are fact. I'm hoping that you will look again and see.

And for any who think I'm attacking you, Shelby, no, I am not. Very, very far from it indeed, as those with eyes to see do see.

For those joined to Christ, really no point, dear LQ (again, peace to you!). For those who still walk by sight, however, versus by faith... and so "need to SEE it... in WRITING"... it holds some benefit.



Yep. Which is why Christ admonished those who belong to him to come to HIM... versus search the scriptures. Not all have the faith (yet) to do that, though.

But that is TRUE assignment of the Body of Christ: to preach the GOOD news of the kingdom. Which "news" is that the KING of the kingdom...Christ... LIVES (because he WAS resurrected from the dead)... and so SPEAKS... and is heard by all who put their faith IN him... so as to LISTEN when he DOES... and be led... into ALL truth... indeed, to FOUNTAINS of waters of LIFE. THAT... is the GOOD news... of the kingdom.

NOT that God is going to judge and bring destruction upon the wicked. While that might be "good" news to the "righteous"... it really isn't good news at all. Because the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, does not WANT... ANY... to die. Nor does His Son. Nor, then, should we. Rather, we should PRAY for our enemies, FORGIVE them and ask forgiveness FOR them... that maybe they might turn AROUND... and receive life, too! Even so, the destiny of the wicked is JAH's problem. Not ours. Because vengeance belongs to HIM... and Him alone.

Rather than being concerned as to who will die/be destroyed, then, WE... as "ambassadors substituting FOR Christ"... should be preaching a RELEASE to the "captives," those who've put their faith in earthling man... and so have become enslaved BY earthling man... by means of the false teachings, doctrines, traditions, customs... and judgments of those who "seat themselves in the seat of Moses." We were, for a time, under their care.

NOW, though, is the ACCEPTABLE time for us to come AWAY... and follow the FINE Shepherd, the "greater" Moses... the One who gave HIS life for us: the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), His Son and Christ. Follow him... and the "Ark" of the NEW Covenant mediated by HIM... the law of which is fulfilled by LOVE.

And... sorry, but he is NOT "Jesus," dear one. "Jesus" is just a tool used by false "christs" and false prophets to mislead... IF POSSIBLE... even the chosen ones. "He" is an icon that earthling man created... because they can't see the REAL Son.

I am glad that what dear tec (peace to you, dear one!) and I shared was of some help. Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

Okaayyyy?! Been THERE, dear, dear Char (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... and wasn't pleased, either - LOLOLOL! I am going to respond to this post, before I return to your previous one (which I had every intention of responding to yesterday but was quite "discouraged" after losing my response to dear LQ (peace to you, as well!). So, let's start here, then go there? K!



No worries, at all, luv... and I totally understand!



Well, I mean, if one is professing to follow Christ that might be a reason not to. I mean, I'm just sayin'...



Well, okay, you could be right, dear one, so let's take a look at what he is recorded to have said. From Matthew 23:9. First, from the Jerusalem Bible, which is the version you're most familiar with, right? That verse reads:

"You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven."

Okay, but that could still be an erroneous transliteration, so let's check the Greek:

"καὶ πατέρα μὴ καλέσητε ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς εἷς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς"

Which translates as:

"And fathers not you should call of you upon the earth one for is of you the father the heavenly one".

Just to be sure, I looked at a few other translations:

Hebrew Names:

"Call no man on the eretz your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven."

Latin Vulgate (which most parts of most of the modern versions, come from):

"et patrem nolite vocare vobis super terram unus enim est Pater vester qui in caelis est"...

which translates to:

"and call none your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven".

I also checked the Douay:

"And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ."

Interestingly, the Douay also includes the following commentary:



I wonder... who "interpreted" THAT commentary... and by what means? If it wasn't by holy spirit, then it was by means of [his] own understanding, wasn't it? Genesis 40:8; Daniel 1:17; 2:28. Can we know? Sure, we can: whoever it was doesn't SAY that it was by means of holy spirit and/or what [he] received from Christ. If it was... [he] would have given That One the glory and SAID so. Acts 15:28; 1 Corinthians 7:10, 12, 25, 40; James 1:5; 1 John 2:26-28



It isn't, dear one. It's just as I would speak with you and you with me. We are not God's friends... yet. But we are Christ's friends. Who prays to a friend, dear one? I must against ask YOU... to THINK, dear Char. Perhaps the fact that Christ taught HOW to pray to Father, might help. Did he, anywhere in those instructions, say, "And when you pray to ME... go, do, say...?" His disciples were right there with him. He told them how to pray to the Father. When did he tell them to pray to HIM? To quote your words: he didn't.



I cannot deny that I might have learned some things from them, dear one, yes. I also learned some things in university and law school. As well as in life. And on other boards. Mainly, though, I learned... and am still learning... from Christ. And that truly is what you "see" here.



(Smile) I always re-read my posts, dear Char. Several times, actually. Yet, I cannot say that I see what you "see." But then, you don't see about yourself what I "see." Or perhaps what others "see." For example, how you respond to dear Loz (peace to you!). But you seem to recognize that some MIGHT "see" in you what you don't. I offer your next comment to support that:



I cannot see where ANYONE thought you were attacked ME, dear one. Including me (but I did perceive you being overly critical of dear Loz... again... and I'm sure I'm not alone). For some reason, though, YOU believe some perceived you as attacking me. Why did you? And why do you NOT see how you appear to be in "attack" mode when it comes to dear Loz?

We currently "see" differently, dear Char. I know this and I think you do, as well. But I am not of the mind or heart that says we must be at odds when we do so. I do not consider you as transgressing against ME... and, as I've share before, per my Lord's instructions, he that is not against me is for me. You have shown yourself to be "for" me, in love, if not in any other way. But what other way matters? None, as far as I'm concerned and so I've tried to show you the same love... and not that I am "against" you. Because I am not. I don't necessarily agree with you in various matters, as you don't with me... but I don't mind... or take issue... when we discuss those differences. I hope you will continue with that mindset, as well. I don't... and have no reason to... doubt that you will.

Okay, off to consider your previous post!

Again, peace to you, TRULY!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

I tried to briefly respond to your concern here, dear Char (again, peace to you!) and I hope I did - I did NOT take your comments as criticism, not at ALL! Nor did I consider them contradictions. I totally realize that you are commenting based on YOUR knowledge and understanding... as I am doing based on mine.



I am not so sure, dear one, because "logic" often only takes into consideration that which is physical/terrestrial - it does not always encompass, embrace, or accept what is of spirit/celestial. I mean TRUE logic does, because it takes into consideration ALL that is true... and not just that which is "known" to physical mankind (who can only base his "logic" on what he knows).



I would ask you to re-read this statement, dear Char, because you did not state in this case that they received different responses. Assuming they did, I believe I answered how it can be known... by them as well as by others: IF both were TRULY concerned about TRUTH, then the one who was wrong would admit that. HE/SHE would know they were wrong... after having "tested" what they "heard"... and as to "whom" they heard it from... and admit that.

And so others would know by their admission... if not by having asked and "tested" the expression themselves. Now, if one or neither wish to state the TRUTH... but continue in the LIE... well, then... some might have a problem discening which one is speaking truth, yes. But THEY could resolve that problem by going... and asking... themselves. Now, if they don't want to DO that... well, I mean, I kind of answered that, too. I mean, if I don't even want to LOOK into the microscope to see if blood has cells... how can I say they DON'T?

The "external objectivity," then, would be based on the experience of the one who DID so go... and ask... and put faith in what THEY heard... from Christ... as to the matter.



I DO see what you're saying. Do YOU "see" what I am stating? I don't think so. I think what you and some others might be missing is that some of us (of the Body) actually DO understand logic. Have studied it academically, perhaps even excelled in it. And/or have been taught by others outside and since academia. You, on the other hand, don't understand what I am speaking of as to the SPIRIT; you have not studied it. Indeed, you've only recently met some who are aware of it, literally. Many CLAIM to be aware, but when questioned one finds they only have an abstract understanding. An "I believe," and "I think" and "It may be that", etc. Those are not the same as knowing, though, right?

What you and perhaps some others miss is that we have been where you are. And moved passed. You are asking us to move BACK. To the fleshly. Why? Why do YOU not move UP? From glory... TO glory... and so CLOSER to Christ, not AWAY from him and closer to man??



I DO see that! What I think perhaps YOU don't see is that I am not trying to convince ANYONE of ANYTHING. Nor do I think some others who share my faith are. We are just SHARING... OUR... faith. Whether others hear... or refrain... accept... or reject... agree... or disagree. WE... do not NEED anyone to AGREE with us. But it does seem that you and some others do! Why? If what you believe is TRUE... then what does it matter whether others agree or not? Put it out there... and let those who can receive it receive it... and those who can't/don't/won't... not. Right?

But what I perceive is that in spite of some (including perhaps you) being "okay" with their own beliefs... or even disbeliefs... NEEDING others to agree and accept it as well. Dear one, we are just here... discussing what we know. That's it, that's all. We are not ASKING... ANYONE... to accept it as truth. We don't NEED anyone to do so. I mean, do you NEED others to agree with you that, say, you are female? No? Why? Because you KNOW you're female. And if others disagree... well, that's THEIR problem, right?

Same thing as to our faith, dear one.



I TOTALLY understand, dear Char. Truly... I DO. I GET it (and I'm not yelling, not at all, but just "emphasizing", as I would if we were speaking face to face. Please, do not read anything more into my words - LOLOL!).



Dear Char, I GET that, truly I DO. The thing is, I also realize that while you (and perhaps some others) accept ME and MY faith... you have... mmmmmmm... some issues with others' profession of theirs. But they are no different from me - they are just less... "mature" in Christ than I am. Because I have been listening, hearing, and sharing longer. But the situation is really no different than it was when my Lord first started HIS ministry. Even his own siblings didn't believe him. His friends, family, townsfolks... all were, like, "Wait, we KNOW you. You're so-and-so! And NOW you want us to believe you have some special "gift", that you're someone "special"? Seriously?! You're not God's son! You're just mimicking John (the Baptizer)! We know YOU!"

But they didn't truly, did they? They knew what they had seen of him before, yes, but NOW... HOLY SPIRIT had come upon him! NOW, he was "different" in presenting himself to them. And that is the case with some of the Body. Some believe that since they "knew" them before, they have grounds to say, "Oh, no, YOU'RE not a member of the Body of Christ! YOU don't have holy spirit and YOU don't hear! You're only mimicking Shelby! We know YOU!"

But... they DON'T know these. Now, I can sit silently and say nothing, but I know how it feels to have people challenge and oppose you because they think they "know" you. Particularly when they DON'T know Christ... or holy spirit.



Dear, dear Char... I would LOVE to say, "Okay, Char, it you need it to be that way, so be it." Just to keep the peace. But I would be lying to you... and I can't do that, luv. Truly. I can't. It's not all prayer, luv. But... please... believe what you wish to believe. It does not matter to ME what you consider it "all" to be. Truly. But please don't ask me to saying something is something... when it's not. Please. Call it "all" that if YOU wish. I cannot, dear one.



Dear Char, I don't dislike the word "absolutely," at all. I used myself and often. I'm not sure why you think I "dislike" it. I did refer to how you used it, but not because I dislike it.



(HUGE smile) You've stated something VERY interesting here, dear Char. Let me ask you, please: why do you state:



You start to give the MOST HOLY One of Israel His JUST glory... when you stated: "God said." And then you literally negate [that glory]... with the words "in effect." Why did you do that? Why were you unable to state "God said"... and leave it at that? I will tell you why: your lack of faith. You HEARD... and yet, you could not give God the glory for WHAT you heard. Nor could you give the glory to the One you heard it from: His Son. Christ. Because of this, your lack of faith... you gave the glory to yourself. Why, dear one? What were YOU afraid of... such you could not have just stated the TRUTH: GOD said?



I don't think I'm the one making the wrong assumptions, luv. TRULY. I don't fear what people think of me, so I openly acknowledge "Who" tells me what I share. You seem unable to do that. I ask you, though: if God DIDN'T tell you... WHO did? Yourself? Why did you need to tell yourself? If God DID tell you... why not just openly ADMIT that? Before man... AND God?



I am not sure as to all you're stating here, but I can say that I introduced potatoes because your assumption that we were/are talking about the same things but just with different words/pronunciations... is an error. We are not. We may both be talking about vegetables (spiritual matters), but absolutely not the SAME vegetable. Not at all.



But, yes, I got that. I got your point. Truly.



Ummmmm... it truly was not about me not "liking," dear one. I truly do not care what the Pope is, is not, calls himself... or is called by others. I just pointed out how he could not be a "FIRST... among EQUALS." The very description is illogical... and I used logic to show it. I must admit, though, I am actually very surprised that you didn't get that.



Dear Char, I didn't take it personally, as if you were writing against ME, not at all. I addressed what you STATED. My response was not meant to be personal as to you... any more than your comments are meant to be personal against any here who were once JWs. Can you see that?



No, I do get that, dear one. What I "see", though, is that it is only dear Loz that you ever feel compelled to respond to/comment as to. For example, dear JustMom (peace, dear one!) commented... and quite passionately. I cannot imagine, however, that you would have remained silent as you have had such come from dear Loz. Really, dear one... I am not making this up. Loz is not the only one who posts her "agreement" with what I post. And she is not the only one who has commented as to the Pope, the RCC, etc. Yet, she is the only one you address in the way you do. Please... re-read the threads where you've commented to her... and your comments. Before you do, though, please so consider asking Christ to "open" YOUR eyes as to this issue? Because you might "see" just a little differently if you do.



Yes, it has. Which is why I was concerned... again... and commented. It is VERY confusing to me, again, considering how you treat/address ME. You have NEVER been disrespectful or addressed me with scorn, etc. I don't "know" that from you, ever... and it's very... mmmmmm... concerning when I see it toward another. I can't... it doesn't "compute."



EXACTLY! This is what I "know" about you and as to you, dear one! Which is WHY it's so confusing! Perhaps it's borne of a combination of many comments over time? I mean, each time I read it... and read it... and read it, again. And I TRY... VERY hard... to "hear" the "you" I know in it. And I can't. I just can't. I'm like, "Where did THAT come from??" And again, it confused... and confuses... the HECK out of me.

I dunno, luv. I will try to read better, perhaps even ask what you might mean if I feel confused. But honestly, dear one... I don't THINK I'm reading it wrong. Of course, I may be, though, so I will try to make sure from this point on.

Again, dear Char... I did not take offense, nor did I sense that you had. I realize we are very similar in our forthrightness... and given the medium that is the Internet (versus phone or face to face), words AND tone can often be misunderstood. If I gave you the impression that I misunderstood YOU... then I sincerely apologize. I didn't, based on what you've posted, but if you got that IMPRESSION from me, then I will try to state my comments "better"... if I can/remember to (I do get to typing pretty fast, though, so please... please forgive and overlook, but pull my coat if you think I'm not "improving" - LOLOLOL!).

So, I hope this helps and, as ALWAYS... the greatest of love and peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

Shel, I am merely bemused by what seems like an obsessive need to harp on about and analyse my supposed relationship with or attitude towards Loz.

I have neither. Whatever you see is in your own mind, or maybe hers. Who knows? Not mine.

I have no more to say on the subject.

I find it highly ironic that you prance around this forum telling people they don't have faith. I have never met anyone with less faith than you. A Jehovah's Witnesses faith is stronger than yours. The ONLY reason why someone would feel compelled to JUDGE others faith in the manner that you do is because they don't have any themselves, it's as simple as that. Char is a faithful servant of the Lord, you have no right to claim otherwise. What you really need to do is go back to the drawing board and figure out the reason why you strayed so far from God and feel this burning need to bring others down with you.

-Sab

I read the parts of 1 Corinthians and Romans again. In Romans, the context was that Paul was writing about judging regarding matters of what was once part of the Law, but were no longer such, but are instead conscience matters. In 1 Corinthians, he was writing about judging regarding matters that were scandalous and would bring ill-repute to the congregation. Two very different things. I am having a hard time believing the "any longer" part applied to what was scandalous.

One other comment... I find it disheartening to see personal attacks here. I really hope it discontinues. Personally, if Shelby were to tell me I had a lack of faith, I would not bristle. My "faith" has been shaken to its very core over the past couple of years. I am finding I put "faith" in WTS more than I did Christ. Perhaps, though, "lack of" is an incorrect term. Christ said certain ones indeed had a lack of faith (people in his home town, for example.) However, he also acknowledged that some did not have a lack of faith, but "little faith". Christ said: "Because of YOUR little faith. For truly I say to YOU, If YOU have faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU will say to this mountain, ‘Transfer from here to there,’ and it will transfer, and nothing will be impossible for YOU." - Matt 17:20
I would venture to say that no human since man's beginning has ever had faith the size of a mustard grain. No mountain has ever transferred from one place to another. If I had such faith, I would most certainly attempt that, just for fun.

Wow Sab. I can't imagine what prompted that attack but you offer no justification for your words against Shelby, simply insult. Doesn't really work, that. Doesn't even sound like you?

Loz x

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

LQ, actually, Sab is correct. Thank you so much for that, Sab! My faith, fortunately for me, is very strong and its roots are extremely deep. That has protected me and prevented me ultimately from becoming a Jehovah's Witness.

I am, in fact, something of a public figure here. Not a celebrity, thank goodness! but very well known in the area, in all walksvof life, and known to be a staunch and faithful Catholic. I am daily astonished and grateful at the generosity of priests and people in the Church here. Most know about my misadventure. No-one treated me scornfully when I met them by chance when I was with the JW's. not one. I went round door to door with the JW's as an unbaptised publisher, and when I encountered someone who knew me, no-one said, "What on earth do you think you're doing, stop making such a fool of yourself!" or anything like it. I wish they had! They were polite, and restrained. When I came back into the Church, after a few months going nowhere, very wounded by my JW experience (I still bear very raw scars) I was greeted with warmth and love and delight and genuine welcome, in a quiet and moderate Catholic way, no ostentatious empty hugs as with the Witnesses.

This morning I walked up the road after Mass with someone my own age who I've known for 24 years. Our children were in school together and our life experiences are similar. She invited me once again to start reading in church...the exclusion of women from that role is purely JW...at the priest's request. I actually declined. In myself I still feel deeply ashamed of having been taken in and manipulated as I was by JW's, because although they were at times unscrupulous it was I who allowed it to happen due to my anger at something that had happened in church. I don't feel I want to do anything other than take part in the Mass, and to sit quietly in the presence of God (yes, I know He's everywhere at all times but specially in Church) and talk to Him and listen to Him, just as I have always done, all my life, and as so very many people do.

This is nothing to do with talking to Him in the manner you describe, Shelby. No "GOING" to Him and asking. Why not? Because it's not necessary. I trust Him totally, in every way. I can be with Him in love, and know that He is with me, in love, that he is indeed love, and why would I need to talk to him in words or ask him anything? This is not to say one doesn't intercede for those who are sick or in want or suffering, or that I might not take to him a situation or problem that causes concern, but if I do that I also know that he already knows.

Don't think for one moment that I'm unusual. I'm not. I'm only doing and being what so many do, whether Catholic or Anglican, Methodist or Baptist...I've never actually known many Baptists...but what I mean is, this is nothing to do with denominational it's affiliation.

You and some others here say you have nothing to do with religion. To one looking at it all from the outside, as it were, you seem constantly to be going on about religion in one way or another! Most people I know respect other people's faiths. I do not denigrate Anglicanism, which I left when I became Catholic, or look down, for instance, on the Salvation Army. Far from it! I view us all as pilgrims on the same journey, and that's normal thinking. You decry everything you call religion.

This seeing one's own individual ideas as the only right approach smacks of nothing so much as the Watchtower. Their creed is different but the attitude is the same. Over and over again you speak of yourselves here, and presumably of others of like mind, as the Body. In fact, I think earlier today or maybe yesterday you wrote somewhere using the phrase "those of us who are of the Body of Christ". The Church is the Body of Christ, and there are countless billions comprising it, here and in heaven. It's not exclusive. It's inclusive. I do not mean the Catholic Church. I mean what Paul Sacramento beautifully said a few months back, that the Church of Christ, his Body, is all believers of whatever denomination and none. I don't exclude anyone, maybe all faiths are included too. Who am i to say? i don't and won't. Christ died to save us all, he came for all mankind. I said this to you once and you told me I was wrong, but it is not wrong. This is his message.

Praying is emphatically talking to and with God and listening to him, and it's very interesting that you deny this fact. It really is. No-one, NOBODY need feel inadequate, as so many here do and have expressed that feeling when they say they want to hear but don't know how. Everyone can and everyone knows how. A desire to be with God, any expression of thankfulness, any feelings of awe, of joy, of love, of peace, these are all prayer and they are all talking to God and listening to him. In church looking at a beautiful window or crucifix as I was a few hours ago, out in the open air, by the sea, in a forest, reading the Bible, looking at the wonder of life in a new baby, feeling compassion for the beggar in the street, these are all prayerful encounters with God.

Thank you, Sab, for unlocking my tongue or at least thoughts through my fingers. Shelby, you tend to analyse and break down someone's post verbally, often with Biblical references, but again that is a process straight out of the Watchtower, confuscating and obscuring the forest by examining the bark in each tree in minute detail.

I've just seen Loz's post condemning Sab. It's predictable, because there are some who will always react like that. Again, thank you, Sab.

How you can condone Sab accusing Shelby of having no faith simply amazes me. Or does it? No, it is actually very revealing. You think I'm predictable for being appalled at someone who is attacking one who loves Jah and Christ, unjustly?

Good. I'll take that compliment.

Loz x

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

I'd better not answer you, Loz. I'll be singling you out. (See Shelby's posts above.)

Stop playing at being clever with words. You're not fooling anyone except yourself. And for the record I long ago lost trust in anything you have to say, so it's no loss to me.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"