AGUEST SAID
May you all have peace... and while I get that discussions "evolve," might those of you who've greatly deviated try to stay on topic, please... or at least something remotely related? You are MORE than welcome to start a new thread, but Burning Man, etc., is kinda out of the scope here. Thanks!
Dear
tec... the greatest of love and peace to you, and I agree with dear Loz. Meeting with your former study conductor one on one might be "better" in that she might feel more... mmmmm... free... to ask YOU questions... as well as listen to your responses. Meeting with the group, not so much. JWs tend to "stick to the script" in such instances... and so you would have more likely met with the usual canned "reasonings" (that make absolutely NO sense and never really respond to the topic/question). I truly believe that if you were meant to speak to the group, our dear Lord would have "led" you to do so. So, I think you did exactly what you should have... and will see that when the time comes.
Quote:
Shelby, You've said a few times that JWs believe those who do not partake have life in themselves. I don't understand the phrasing you use "life . . . in themselves". Can you explain how they teach this? I've never heard this taught, at least not quite so directly.
My first time hearing it was on the campus of CSU Sacramento when I was attending
in 2000, dear LQ (peace to you, dear one!). I had approached a table of "sisters" (with their literature laid all nice and such) and got into a discussion with one lady. We had been discussing many things and were now on the topic of HOW JWs could be resurrected and/or live forever WITHOUT eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood. The "sister" was quite frustrated with me by that time and exasperatedly said to me, "We don't HAVE to partake of the emblems!" When I asked her, "But then HOW will you be resurrected?? And the book, "You CAN Live Forever" - HOW can you do so without eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood?!" Her response was, "Because we have life WITHIN OURSELVES!"
Well, mmmmmm... that's NOT what Christ is recorded to have said... and so I showed her what he DID say, as recorded at
John 6:51-53, that "UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man AND drink his blood, you have NO life in yourselves."
Needless to say, she read the words, her eyes popped, she blushed a DEEP read... and then she abruptly turned from me and walked back to her seat behind the table... where she started packing up her literature. I felt horrible for her... because apparently she had never read the words I showed her. And so, she HAD no response to them.
I never really looked into it. I recall hearing the teaching before but didn't remember the details - I just thought it was remarkable what took place THAT day with THAT lady. BUT... due to your question now I did a search on the WTBTS website and found the following (did anyone know that you can now "register" and "log in" on JW.org? Of course, they want a buttload of info about you. I started to make a dummy account but then thought "Nahhh... I don't even visit the site enough to be a "registered" member... and they don't really have anything of interest to me that I can't get without joining up, so...):
Apparently, the teaching wasn't entirely new as someone was questioning prior to it's being addressed in the WT. She and I spoke in 2000; however, the WT addressed it in 2003, 2005, and 2008. Hence:
From the
w03 9/15 pp. 30-31 -
Questions From Readers – What does having “life in himself” mean? -
Quote:
"The Bible speaks of Jesus Christ as having “life in himself” and of his followers as having ‘life in themselves.’ (John 5:26; 6:53) However, these two scriptures do not have the same meaning.
“Just as the Father has life in himself,” stated Jesus, “so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.” Prior to making this remarkable statement, Jesus said: “Most truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life . . . The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.” Here Jesus was referring to an extraordinary power bestowed upon him by the Father—the ability to give humans a fine standing before God. Moreover, Jesus is able to resurrect those sleeping in death and to impart life to them. For Jesus, having “life in himself” means that he is granted these powers. Like the Father, the Son also has “in himself the gift of life.” (John 5:24-26; footnote) What about his followers?
About a year later, Jesus addressed his listeners, saying: “Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day.” (John 6:53, 54) Here Jesus equates having “life in yourselves” with gaining “everlasting life.” Expressions with the same grammatical construction as having “life in yourselves” are found elsewhere in the Greek Scriptures. Two examples are, “Have salt in yourselves” and “receiving in themselves the full recompense.” (Mark 9:50; Romans 1:27) In these instances, the phrases do not signify power to bestow salt on others or to mete out recompense to anyone. Rather, internal completeness, or fullness, is indicated. Thus, the expression “life in yourselves” used at John 6:53 simply means entering into the very fullness of life.
With reference to his followers as having life in themselves, Jesus mentioned his flesh and his blood. Later, when instituting the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus again spoke about his flesh and blood and directed his followers who would be taken into the new covenant to partake of the emblems of unleavened bread and wine. Does this mean that only anointed Christians, who are in the new covenant with Jehovah God, enter into such fullness of life? No. The two occasions were a year apart. Those who heard Jesus’ words recorded at John 6:53, 54 had no knowledge of an annual observance with emblems representing Christ’s flesh and blood.
According to John chapter 6, Jesus first compares his flesh to manna, saying: “Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever.” Jesus’ flesh, along with his blood, was greater than literal manna. How? In that his flesh was given for “the life of the world,” making everlasting life possible.* Hence, the statement about having “life in yourselves” at John 6:53 applies to all those receiving everlasting life—in heaven or on earth.—John 6:48-51.
When do Christ’s followers receive life in themselves, or enter into the fullness of life? For the anointed Kingdom heirs, this happens at their resurrection to heavenly life as immortal spirit creatures. (1 Corinthians 15:52, 53; 1 John 3:2) Jesus’ “other sheep” experience entry into the fullness of life after the end of his Thousand Year Reign. By then, they will have been tested, found faithful, and declared righteous for everlasting life in the Paradise earth.—John 10:16; Revelation 20:5, 7-10.
[Footnote]
In the wilderness, both the Israelites and “a vast mixed company” needed manna to stay alive. (Exodus 12:37, 38; 16:13-18) Likewise, to live forever, all Christians, whether anointed or not, must avail themselves of the heavenly manna by exercising faith in the redeeming power of Jesus’ flesh and blood laid down in sacrifice.—See The Watchtower, February 1, 1988, pages 30-1.
[Pictures on page 31]
All true Christians can have ‘life in themselves’"
From the
Instructive Experiences and Interviews Section of the “They Are Making Themselves Available” Talk for the 118th ([b]2005) Graduating Class[/b]:
Quote:
"Stephen Lett, a member of the Governing Body, gave the concluding talk, entitled “Go Forth as Bearers of ‘Living Water.’” (John 7:38) He noted that for the past five months, the students benefited immeasurably by drinking deeply from God’s Word of truth. But what will the new missionaries do with the information they have taken in? Brother Lett urged the graduates to share these spiritual waters unselfishly so that others will come to have within themselves “a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.” (John 4:14) The speaker added: “Never forget to give Jehovah, ‘the source of living water,’ the honor and glory that he deserves. Be patient when teaching those who have come out of drought-stricken Babylon the Great.” (Jeremiah 2:13) Brother Lett concluded by encouraging the graduates to imitate enthusiastically the spirit and the bride and keep on saying: “‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17
From the
"Highlights From the Book of John - 'See the Lamb of God' - Scriptural Questions Answered" -
w08 4/15 p. 30-p. 32 par. 11:
Quote:
"5:26; 6:53—What does it mean to have ‘life in oneself’? For Jesus Christ, this means receiving from God two specific capabilities—the ability to give humans a fine standing with Jehovah and the power to impart life by resurrecting the dead. For Jesus’ followers, ‘having life in themselves’ means entering into the very fullness of life. Anointed Christians enter into it when they are resurrected to heavenly life. Faithful ones with an earthly hope will experience the fullness of life only after they pass the final test that will occur right after the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ.—1 Cor. 15:52, 53; Rev. 20:5, 7-10.
The erroneous timelines and many other errors in these articles/statements notwithstanding, dear one, the WTBTS teaches that the "other sheep" will STILL have life in themselves...
in spite of not having partaken of Christ's flesh and blood. Christ, however, is recorded to have said, "
UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have NO life within yourselves."
So... who's right? Christ? Or the WTBTS? If Christ is right, HOW are those who DON'T partake... but have DIED... going to BE resurrected... so as to LIVE during that "millenial reign" so as to BE tested at the end of it? And... even though that teaching is SO erroneous, say they did make it to the end of that reign... HOW are they going to live FOREVER?
Here is what
Christ is recorded to have said about it:
"Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but
whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
John 6:49-51, 54-58By teaching that (1) only a few need to partake of the flesh and blood of Christ, and (2) that some will have life within themselves WITHOUT eating and drinking... regardless of WHEN they claim that will occur (they have it wrong for both groups)... they are, in essence, "shutting UP the kingdom of the heavens before men," dear one. As Christ said, THEY do not go in, neither do they permit those on their way in to go in.
Matthew 23:13.
This is because they are shutting up the WAY in: Christ. The WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE.
John 14:6 HE is the "Door" into the MOST Holy (
John 10:9... and thus, NO ONE comes to the Father... EXCEPT... THROUGH... him.
I hope this helps, truly, dear LQ... and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
Shellama
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