xjwsforChrist

YPPUPLLEH SAID

(to outlaw)

Then there is that. You are right and I am mistaken. I can accept that you view me as such

YPPUPLLEH SAID



I do grasp your position on the matter and I appreciate your dialogue as well as your approach I have to say again that I'm happy with the way the thread has been going
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

OUTLAW SAID


LOL!!@Pup!!..
I`m afraid so Pup..
We come from a very Strange World..
All is not as it seems..

JUSTMOM SAID

Yes, we are a tad different kinda species, LOL

But PUP don't be afraid, we love ya!




Justmom

CHARIKLO SAID


Pup, to understand JW's, think George Orwell's 1984.

That some families are in for generations might support your premise that such families are happy with that thought-system, and, as AnneB says, with that support system as the support they might need for a time, IF you take fear out of the picture.

And IF you're forgetting about disfellowshipping. And IF you don't realise that everyone is expected to snitch on everyone else. Even children must report parental infringements of the code.

I was required to confirm my acceptance of that fact. So, every hour, every minute, every day, each person knows they are liable to get told on, dobbed in, whatever term you use. Think 1984. Think Big Brother always watching you.

The carrot is the warm cosy feeling of being in a Big Family, all happy brothers and sisters together, reinforced by illustrations of multinational multiracial people living in an idealised pretty rural countryside, harvesting baskets of fruit and vegetables, children stroking tigers and pandas and swimming with sharks, all happily picnicking with huge smiles plastered on their faces. All this can be yours!

IF you do as we tell you. Only believe! OR...

OR...here comes the stick...

We'll disfellowship you. Even worse, we'll disfellowship your sons and daughters, your grandchildren, parents...

SO, even I knew families that had nothing to with their own children, even though they were still in their teens. Children not allowed to see their brothers and sisters, fathers, though they did, and one was well on the way last thing I heard to getting disfellowshipped herself. I knew SEVERAL such families, and remember, I was associated with them closely for just under two years.

Cult. Brainwashing. The people you think are happy in it are happy in the sense that they are drugged on what is piped into them every day, and they wear the painted smile because IF they don't like it THEN they will be put outside the gates of fellowship, always believing that it is really the Almighty Jehovah Himself who has rejected them.

Because elders do indeed have that absolute power. They are taught they have the power of acting direct on Jehovah's behalf.

Cult. Brainwashing. Mind control. Thought control. Even I, there for such a short time, experienced it.

Very, very, very bad.

ZOE SAID

Yah I couldn't have said it better, thanks Chariklo, Outlaw and Shelby, you said it all!

You might think you are happy and not know you are in a cult living as a JW, lots live through generations of "happiness" and so let them be we say.

Example: Just like those FLDS families living for years happily for generations with the men having 10 wives or more and dozens of children, but don't dare go outside the community, you are thrown to the wolves, but why would the men want to go anywhere LOL. The boys get kicked to the curb a lot in that cult as the older men don't like the competion.

Or there is the Mennonite and the Amish, they are living in another century, are they happy, Yes some are but don't dare go and try and live or think in this century and you are shunned. So happiness depends on staying "happy" the way they want you to.

If people want to live a life like the JW's thats fine but its still a cult if you aren't allowed to know about other options and choose them if you want without life changing terrible results.

I agree let them be if they are happy but its still a cult.
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*ZOE*

AGUEST SAID

Spot ON, dear Char (good morning and peace to you!)!!!

This from dear Zoe, dear HP (good morning and peace to you both, as well!):



Yes! Indeed, THEY are the only ones who can TELL you if you're happy or not... and why/why not:

You ARE... if you're making meetings, pioneering, eldering, participating in field service, making your hours, placing lots of literature, have your children in control, are an obedient wife and a husband in control of his wife, children, household, finances, book study members, etc. Even more, if you LOOK the part (even if you're NOT doing all of these things). If your hair, makeup, clothing, bookbag, home, car, etc., LOOKS like you have it all together, then that's just as good, if not BETTER. Because people will LOOK at you and SEE "your fine example."

You are NOT... if you're failing at ANY one of the above. Failure at ANY ONE of these can mean you're NOT "spiritual" and thus not "happy" and thus not "worthy." Your entire life could be a sham... but as long as you don't LOOK like it is... you're good. Be on drugs (legal OR illegal), be an alcoholic, fight in front of the kids, have illicit affairs, steal, lie, cheat... hate others, your brothers as WELL as your enemies... but dammit... don't LOOK like it!

They are BIG on that outward appearance thing, dear one. HUGE. It's everything to them. I remember an account on JWN from a former Bethelite who recounted a GB member wanting to "massage" some young "brother" up on the roof (where he, the GB member, was tanning naked). Or something like that.

Put a suit and tie on that dude, though, and have him give one of their contrived speeches in a calm, "soothing" voice (or a "fiery" one, depending on the organization's "needs" at the time)... and VOILA! Instant "spiritual" man!!

Gag. No... GAG! HACK, ACK, UGH... and GAG! Gives me the WILLIES to think back on what I know about some folks NOW... which was present then... but I wouldn't LET myself see. Just... dirty. True, they don't really KNOW they're dirty. Well, I mean, how could you not... lest you were utterly blind. And blindess is the main feature, there, the main course of what they serve up. From the top... to the bottom.

When I see a JW now, I have to stop myself from wondering, "Ummm-hmmm, but you're a screamin' meemie... or overbearing asshole... if not a drunk... at home."

Yes, I know - not all are like that. But you would be surprised at how many ARE, at least in THIS country.

Peace!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

CHARIKLO SAID


Oh, yes, Shelby, and hello and peace to you too!

Yes! "Your fine example". That, Pup, is a favourite jargon phrase! I even had it said to me the first time I set out like a good little JW to join in the door-knocking, otherwise known as the "service". I was also told, believe it or not, that the angels were crowding round and applauding me!

Shelby, your descriptions are as true for JW's over here as they are for JW's with you. I was forcing myself into a mould that didn't fit, into dowdy clothes that made me look as though I'd just beamed in from the 1950's! I was almost unrecognisable from my true self, always casual, always in trousers!

One of my biggest crimes was to have an untidy car!

AGUEST SAID

Quote:
Shelby, your descriptions are as true for JW's over here as they are for JW's with you.


Dang. I was hoping it was just here, dear Char (peace to you!), and maybe only in California... and maybe only in the urban/suburban areas. Well, I'm thinking NYC, too, given the Bethel and other accounts...

But I know it's similar in some rural areas, too, so, okay, Patterson and Walkhill...

But not outside the U.S. Then again, what was I thinking??

Rather than "Read God's Word the Holy Bible Daily" (uh, yeah, right - do it and see what THAT gets'ya!), their motto SHOULD be "Self-Righteous People of the World... UNITE!" I can say that 'cause I was (almost) one of those. That's one of the things that started opening my eyes, though - the whole "he/she's just a GOAT and I'm gonna have his/her house!" mentality while leaving a householder who just wasn't interested... thing. That, and "Armageddon" - could never quite figure out where the "goods news" was in all of that.

Okay, enough WTBTS-bashing from me... for now.

Anyone wanna talk about Christ? LOLOLOL!

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

ANNEB SAID

A few things...

1. A couple of people have mentioned that they are unsure of the definition of "brainwashing". Um....Google???

2. HP mentioned that Chappy and I are the two who seem to be "getting" what is being discussed. That's interesting....because she and I are from the same geographical location; we even have a few friends and acquaintances in common. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?

3. As I read through the thread just now, noting the various perspectives, I was reminded of the original Passover night. The Hebrews were supposed to put blood on the doorpost to avoid losing their firstborn(s). Think of this in connection with the people who are still JW's, even those who "know" but are still counted as members in good standing, the ones Outlaw thinks "know" but who remain in the Org for reasons like family: Do you suppose that some of the Hebrews didn't put the blood on the doorpost? Then, after they had lost the firstborn, do you think that some of them went out and joined the caravan leaving Egypt? I think so. As I see it, that scenario is analogous to today's JW's; they may hear but not "believe" enough to take immediate action, *but* when they reach a certain point, a certain level of comprehension with a certain amount of trust in the True God (rather than in WTBTS), they will act. Doesn't it say something like that in Psalms: You have your company of young men just like dew drops? In other words, they'll appear just before the light of day dawns. ...and that's OK. Wait it out and don't prejudge or condemn; don't even say a negative thing. The True God knows what's in each person's heart, knows where they have to be (in all ways) in order to act. If God is happy doing things that way, I'm happy to wait. I have close family still "in", and they knowwwwww. Whatever it is they need to learn, or whatever trauma they have to overcome, I'm waiting. Trust in Jehovah...(and do not lean on your own understanding)...Remember?
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Everything that I believe today is subject to change as I acquire knowledge, perspective, and direction. I'm on a journey and this is a journal...

JUSTMOM SAID

Hello my sister AnnB...

Very good point!

I'm sure that after they saw the results of "their" disobedience and great loss,
some got a clue and packed up and followed Moses and His God.
Sadly it took a death of their firstborn which could have been spared.

But also I am reminded by my Lord about those jews that were told to flee out of Jerusalem early enough to the mountains so that they could be spared the tribulation of that day.
Those that did were spared.
Those that lingered or took too long reaped unfavorable consequences, some even death.

So not just " hearing" but " listening ", acting on what we hear from our Lord is only for our benefit.

Thanks for share that
Justmom

AGUEST SAID

You mean we should be DOERS, and not just HEARERS, dear 'Mom (peace to you!)?

I wonder: what might JAH have thought if Moses hadn't told the Israelites to put blood on their doorposts, or say, whoever was supposed to hadn't have reminded the Jews of what to do when they caught sight of the "disgusting thing"?

I can see how it would be nice for one to worry solely about oneself and one's own household. SO much easier. But... where is the love? I was recently reminded of that with regard as to what COULD come upon mankind... and what love should prompt one who MIGHT know of it to do. Even if, as with Nineveh... "nothing" ultimately occurs.

It isn't always about the ones warned; sometimes, it's about the love (or lack thereof) of the one who COULD sound the warning. A warning, though, denotes potential danger. Which means, one MIGHT have to say... well, it IS a train that's coming... and not, say, a go-kart.

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

CHAPPY SAID



Yes, I do get where you are coming from. When I was a fully believing JW, I was very content. I truly believed it was the best way of life. There were very difficult aspects. The routine was particularly hard for me. Besides being exhausting while I worked a job with a lot of responsiblities, I'm an introvert to the highest degree. I prefer large amounts of time alone. I couldn't have that in this group, and it had an adverse effect on me. It really freaked me out that at any time, 100 people were interested in my day-to-day life. I always needed more rest and alone time.

But I suppressed those things, as we always do our feelings about the unpleasant things in our lives, regardless of religion, or I just looked at it as my own deficiency and not that of the organization.

But when it became suffocating, and I needed a break, I didn't really have that option. And when I wanted to leave, it was then that I fully understood that this was a type of prison painted with pretty colors. When you are in the midst with no doubts, sure, it's good. But then you realize you are not free. Yes, it's intergenerational, because kids are expected to get baptized, and often do as teens. But then they are stuck. If they leave, they lose everyone in their entire life. Where will they go? They have no one not connected to the cult, because they only made friends in the cult and all their family are in. Well, they were raised on the routine, the easiest course is just to continue the routine, even if their hearts aren't in it. They are doing what is expected of them.

People only recognize they are in prison when they can see the cell walls. I think that is what happens to many people. If they didn't shun, I wouldn't have the same issues with them. If members were truly free, i could feel okay about it. I would still disagree with them, but that would be okay.

I was actively shunned today. Two women that I saw 3 and 4 times a week. Women I laughed with and loved talking to (well, one, the other one I couldn't stand, but pretended). A few months ago I bumped into them, and one (the one I dislike) knew I was being shunned (it was still very new, so some had not heard the announcement) and the one I liked hadn't. We talked for 20 minutes. Laughed. Caught up with each others lives.

Today---she wouldn't acknowledge me.

There is something very wrong with that.

Greetings, dear Chaps, and peace to you! Forgive me, but as I've often shared I don't think like most people and so I am a bit confused as to what you've stated and maybe you can help me understand better. You posted:



But you follow that with:



and...



and...



I am trying to understand your "contentment". Now, I do get your point that:


But I am not sure I get how you were "content." Accepting, perhaps. Tolerant, maybe. Even resigned. But when I think of content I think "relatively satisfied with nothing to complain about:


con·tent /kənˈtent/Adjective
In a state of peaceful happiness.

Verb
Satisfy (someone).

Noun
1.A state of satisfaction: "the greater part of the century was a time of content".
2.The things that are held or included in something.

Synonyms adjective. contented - pleased - satisfied - glad - happy
verb. satisfy - gratify - please - indulge - suffice
noun. contents - satisfaction - contentment - capacity - volume


Yet, it seems (by your comments) that such was not the case at all, that the REALITY is you were UNhappy and actually had several things to complain about... and did, albeit within yourself. That you never shared/voiced them doesn't mean they were there.

Would it be more accurate, then, to say that you THOUGHT you were content? I ask because I believe that that is were most practicing JWs are: THINKING they are happy... when they're really not. Because for the most part, they've never really KNOWN happiness... but only the form of it that the WTBTS has created FOR them. And the same with love, faith, joy, etc.: THINKING they have/know these things... because of how the WTBTS defines them... but really having NO clue as to what they truly are.

[And to any who would say, "Wait, JWs love!" I would counter that, yes, they do, as to their own, if then... but love goes beyond one's own, even to one's enemies, which is the point where they usually stop, even if it includes their own flesh. Not that they all WANT to... and I am CERTAIN some, if not many, struggle with that. But that "contentment" allows them to explain their discomfort away... and so they never truly realize the FULLNESS of love, joy, peace, faith, etc. I digress.]

I realize that I am pendantic when it comes to words, but it is this... mmmmmm... confusion of words that, I think, causes some of the... mmmmmm... confusion... ESPECIALLY in religion. It was something I noticed in the WTBTS and one of the main things that "grated" on me, when folks used words that didn't really mean what they intended them to to describe something. I truly wanted and want to UNDERSTAND, but all I have to go on is what a person says... unless I ask further, as I am doing now. I can't read another's mind, though, to know "just what" they meant if they aren't actually saying so.

[And note, I used to HATE when my ex would use some off-the-wall word to describe what HE knew he meant, but no one else on God's green earth would... or did... and then say, "Well, I thought you'd catch on!" Really? Ummmm, no. Not me. I thought you meant what you SAID. I digress, again.]

When I think of JWs in the context of your comments, I think "Stepford Wives." I do, because such "wives" WERE brainwashed, literally, and it the brainwashing that GAVE them [the ILLUSION of] contentedness. One who is living a horrible, unhappy life... yet, is convinced by others and/or convinces themselves that they are happy... is brainwashed. By others, yes, but even by themselves. If by both, then the whammy is doubled.

I agree, of course, that not everyone in the WTBTS is brainwashed. Everyone CAN'T be. Certainly not those who CAN see, although perhaps haven't found a way out, yet, or see but choose to stay for whatever reason. Or... are themselves contrivers and fomenters OF the brainwashing. In such cases, there is no longer a veil of "contentment" over their eyes.

But for those who are not of those groups and yet are still "content," it the only way they COULD be... is due to the brainwashing. Because they are CONTENT because they BELIEVE they have/are in the "truth." Which is absolutely NOT the case... and ALL of us here will attest to THAT. Brainwashing, however, says things to them like "Well, no, that doesn't look/sound right, but..." or "Well, I KNOW that's wrong, but..." or "Hey, that's not what that verse says at all... but..."

And the ending for every one of those "buts" is either "The Society/GB/Elders are right/know what they're doing; I'm the wrong/stupid one..." or "I'll just do what THEY say and wait on 'Jehovah.'" BOTH of those endings, however, are the sole product of the indoctrination of the WTBTS machine. Were it NOT, folks would be ENCOURAGED to think... and do so withour fear of reprisal, repercussion, or loss. Of ANYTHING. No fear of loss of or reprisal from family, fear of loss of or reprisal from associates... or, most importantly, fear of loss of or reprisal from "Jehovah's"! ALL of which are held over one's head... FOR thinking (sometimes at ALL, let alone independently!).

It is that "contentment," then, dear one... that is the MOST dangerous part OF that organization. Because that contentment... is what allows all of the rest (shunning, DF'g, marriage/familial divisions, etc.) to exist. If no one or at least, not the majority, was CONTENT... or at least were allowed to SAY they weren't... or just simply ask questions that might challenge a teaching (but might not, but one may never know 'cause they can't ASK it)... none of it would have been allowed to foment. And it possibly could have made the argument that it IS at least IN the Truth, although not him.

But the very fact that they SUPPRESS truth... and folks are CONTENT with that... shows that they CAN'T be in (union with) Christ. Because he would have had no parts of something like that. His disciples asked him questions all the time.

So, I am wondering if "content" was the word you meant... and if so, how it allows place for the other "feelings" you experienced.

Peace!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

ANNEB SAID


Wanting to address some of AGuest's questions but my name's not Chappy!

I just wonder if my responses and hers will be similar.
_________________
Everything that I believe today is subject to change as I acquire knowledge, perspective, and direction. I'm on a journey and this is a journal...