xjwsforChrist

It is important to understand that the ransom analogy of Mark ( the only place where it is found) is just that, an analogy.
A ransom in 1st century Palestine with Hellenistic influences should NOT be viewed as WE view Ransom today AND any analogy can on be view so far.
An example is: A ransom must be paid to someone, so who did Christ's death pay a ransom to?
Some views include:
God
Death
Satan

It is a tricky subject, no doubt.

I haven't really had a chance so far today to sit down and marshal my thoughts on this, but now I'll give it a go, Pup. Very good question!

First of all, you have to go back to the whole story of Adam, when his sin (disobedience to God) and that of Eve resulted in a kind of stain of sin, known as original sin (because it was the first sin of mankind who before then was innocent) and which throughout all ages has been at the root of mankind's natural tendency to sin. (Whether or not that story is fact (as the WT says) or symbolic and archetypal is a matter of debate, but whichever interpretation is preferred, the effect is the same.

Thus we have 1Corinthians 15:22,

"As in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive."

All. Not some. Not those who believe. All. Perhaps this is one of those Bible references you're looking for?

Christ's death and resurrection conquered death once for all, enabling us to have eternal life. All of mankind.

I am not going to address all possible references tonight, because the subject is vast, but the whole theme of the Bible, from beginning to end, shows eschatologically how Christ comes as the resolution of the theme of disobedience of God by mankind. Shelby wrote above that Christ's promise to the thief on the cross indicates that he was saved because of his faith in Him.

Yet the thief did a whole lot more than just demonstrate faith in Jesus as the Son of God. First, he exhibited a sense of justice. He was outraged at his neighbour's behaviour, the injustice of abusing Jesus. He recognised that Jesus had not sinned and was being punished when he didn't deserve it. He thereby showed compassion for Jesus, and a sense of justice. And, very important, he acknowledged his own sins. He recognises that (according to the law and custom of the time) he deserved his punishment. He understood that Jesus was the promised Messiah by his plea to be remembered when Christ came into his kingdom. In other words he was beseeching him to remember him and have mercy on him. He thus repented of his sins, and showed desire to be with Jesus. He understood that Jesus was not just another man being put to death. He knew that Jesus would go into his kingdom after death.

Jesus' promise to him was thus made not merely upon the basis of his faith, though his faith was part of it. He had a sincere desire to be with him. He acknowledged Jesus for who he was. He knew he was guilty and that Christ was not. He saw the difference between good (Christ) and bad (his own actions.) He was saved therefore by a mixture of faith, and hope...looking forward to a time after death...and charity...revealed by his compassion for Jesus and his sense of justice...and humility and penitence.

He was saved by all of that, and one more thing, two things, which are one. Christ had mercy on him, and he chose and willed to do so. Our salvation doesn't depend on who we are or what we believe or even how we behave. Our salvation depends entirely on God's love for us. And what a good thing that is! Can you move mountains with your faith, anyone here? I doubt it! Therefore our faith is of insignificant proportions! Thank God...literally...daily, hourly, minute by minute, that the extent to which we are saved doesn't depend on ourselves. Of ourselves we can so nothing. We owe everything we have to God and we depend totally on his great goodness as to what happens to us...though we are free to turn our backs on him if that is our choice.

Salvation, God's merciful act of love in sending his only Son to die for us all, once for all, shows very clearly that God's love and mercy are not selective. Christ's sacrifice was for the whole world, and it is his love and mercy and his great sacrifice of himself for us that are ultimately the powerful act that has enabled this.

To think that our salvation depends on whether or not we believe is in fact highly arrogant, denyingChrist the power of his sacrifice and denying the extent and effectiveness of his great love. Furthermore, God will not be outdone in generosity. For every little move our hearts make towards God, he, like the father of the Prodigal son, comes running to meet us, arms outstretched.

Romans 4

13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by FAITH.
14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, FAITH means nothing and the promise is worthless,
15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by FAITH so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the FAITH of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

1 Peter 1

7 These have come so that your FAITH--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
9 for you are receiving the end result of your FAITH, the salvation of your souls.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Hebrews 11


6 And without FAITH it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

I have been following this thread but having no understanding of the right answer I haven't commented. I only know the JW teaching which still lingers and is fused in my mind and that I rebel aganst because they lied so much I don't want to believe it. You must have faith and you must have works in that religion and nothing is ever good enough, you have to keep working and keeping up weith it like a marathon or you will lose. That seemed a bit harsh.

Now I see clearly that Chariko says that we are all included in God's mercy, we don't have to have faith or works...that is very nice to hear but it seems too easy. I can see why so many people are Catholics if that is their message. No sarcasm meant at all, I am truely interested in this message and have to say I never knew that was it at all. I thought they had Hell and Heaven and you needed to confess and all that stuff? I am reading Inferno now by Dan Brown and he is explaining that after Dante wrote about inferno and all the different levels of Hell the Catholic church had a stronger hold on their members.

Quote from Chariklo that to me says we don't need faith, please clarify this Char


Now my understanding was the JW understanding from the scriptures like what Loz quoted that we have to have Faith, a lot of scriptures confirm that. Why is there so much room for either option, it should be one way or the other but it seems some writings are open to interuptation.
Loz said:

I hear you Zoe, and yes whilst we do need faith, salvation is not dependant upon works otherwise it could be earned, and it can't because it's undeserved kindness/grace.

Ephesians 2 might help:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I agree with your understanding as to the RCC as well, if the mercy is to all regardless, why would there be a need for confession?


In Catholic teaching, the Sacrament of Penance is the method of the Church by which individual men and women may confess sins committed after baptism and have them absolved by a priest. Although it is not mandatory, the Catholic rite is usually conducted within a confessional box, booth or reconciliation room. This sacrament is known by many names, including penance, reconciliation and confession (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Sections 1423-1442). While official Church publications always refer to the sacrament as "Penance", "Reconciliation" or "Penance and Reconciliation", many laypeople continue to use the term "Confession" in reference to the Sacrament.
For the Catholic Church, the intent of this sacrament is to provide healing for the soul as well as to regain the grace of God, lost by sin. It is the only ordinary way to receive the forgiveness of God for serious (mortal) sins which if unforgiven condemn a person to Hell.[1] The Church teaches that Catholic priests have been given the authority by God to exercise the forgiveness of sins here on earth and it is in God's Name by which the person confessing is forgiven.[2][3]
The Catholic Church teaches that sacramental confession requires three "acts" on the part of the penitent: contrition (sorrow of the soul for the sins committed), disclosure of the sins (the 'confession'), and satisfaction (the 'penance', i.e. doing something to make amends for the sins).[4] The basic form of confession has not changed for centuries, although at one time confessions were made publicly.[5]


Loz x



Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

There is very little for me to add here. I would add John 3:16

"For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not die, but have everlasting life."



Some of the 'seeming' differences (verses that might seem to be open to interpretation) may also come from their being two resurrections. The first resurrection to all those who belong to Christ... those He gathers to Him upon His return - those who have died and those who are alive - at the same time. Those who are changed in a twinkling, as Paul described.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

and

"We will not all sleep but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the winkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable,and we will be changed."


So all who belong to Christ - and this through faith - are gathered to Him when He returns. These ones rule as kings and priests with Him. (not as man rules, lording it over one another, but as Christ taught us... because God is a God of service)


Then there are also the subjects of the kingdom. Those who might not know Christ, but who Christ knows through their deeds; the sheep separated from the goats; and all those who did good to even the least of Christ's brothers. "What you did for even the least of these, you did for me." And at the second resurrection, when all the dead are called forth, these too are not those who belonged to Christ in faith, because they would have been gathered to Him in the first resurrection. So every one of these whose names are written in the lamb's book of life, according to their deeds.

The subjects of the kingdom did not necessarily have faith in Christ. But these ones are still invited into the kingdom, and their names are written in His book of life.



So it might seem that there are two different schools of thoughts at times... but there are also two different resurrections. This being a good thing, because that means a great hope for MANY.

- Those who belong to Christ, through faith, to rule with Him for a thousand years (not necessarily a literal thousand years) Death has no hold on them, there is no judgment for them, Christ covers them.

- All those who are not among those who belong to Christ in the first resurrection, but who are also known and loved and invited into the Kingdom, in accordance with what they have done "to even the least of these"

Some who think they belong to Christ, do not. And some who do not know Him to think that they might belong to Him, are known by Him and invited in.



I was also reminded of that verse from Hebrews, Loz. Looking at the entire chapter in Hebrews, we get a sense at just how important faith is.

If we ask for something in faith, we receive. Without faith... not so much.


Peace to all,
tammy

Yes, faith is very important. Zoe, you got me a bit wrong there, I didn't say it wasn't important.

But it is not our faith that saves us. Christ actually died for the whole world. Without his sacrifice of himself, we would not have the prospect of eternal life.

Think about it.

That's all I have to say right now, but I will come back to it. Maybe GL would like to add something?

I won't be back till much later, busy weekend!

It seems that the pope got misunderstood.

http://www.examiner.com/article/vatican ... ng-to-hell



After Pope Francis told the world even atheists can go to heaven, the Vatican issued a correction: Atheists are still going to hell.The Vatican issued an “explanatory note on the meaning of “salvation,” on Thursday, May 23, after media reports circulated indicating that Pope Francis” promised heaven for everyone engaged in good works, including atheists.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

That about the Pope is very strange?? It seemed to me his speech said all had salvation if they did good works even if they were athiests? Then some other man/spokesman says no thats not what he meant, what is with that. Was the Pope being too liberal and then corrected by his advisors?

It didn't make sense to me at all that he said it though it was a generous thought. If all have salvation if they do good works then no one has to become a Catholic you would think.

Chariklo maybe you understand it and can clarify further.

First of all, Zoe, thank you for posting that. I found the post about the Pope very surprising, particularly in this thread, where it seems distinctly off-topic, and one wonders why the post was made here, and what the point was meant to be.

However, good can come of something, whatever the intention behind it.



First of all, let's get the source linked to by the poster out of the way. "The Examiner", where the poster found the link, is a satirical publication that publishes not even very good satire, poking destructive fun where it can and where it thinks it will get a laugh from those who have an axe to grind about something. It's not really the kind of place you'd go to if you want to find out the true facts about anything, but it's the perfect place to go to if you want to mock or do damage to something or someone you don't like.

Unfortunately for the poster, such a tactic often backfires. There is an old saying: he who points a finger at someone or something points four fingers back at himself. (Or herself!)

Now to what Pope Francis actually said.



That, in a nutshell, is exactly what Catholics, and I think all Christians who are true Christians with good hearts, believe. Zoe, you ask:



Of course no-one "has" to become Catholic! Anything someone "has" to do has no value! Anything someone freely chooses to do is of great value. If a person doesn't think being a Catholic has value then why would they want to become a Catholic? And why would they mind of anyone elsle chooses to be a Catholic? Makes no sense to me.

Saint Paul makes it very clear somewhere, I think somewhere fairly early in Romans, that people who haven't heard of Jesus but instinctively or naturally fulfil in their lives his commandments, acting in accordance with how he says we should live.

Incidentally, that's very relevant indeed to this thread, because it makes it abundantly clear that however good it is to have faith, and it is of course very good, faith alone isn't necessary. Jesus said "if you love me, keep my commandments". And his commandments are to love God and love our neighbour.

Pope Francis has spelled out the truth of the matter much more clearly than I could.

Thank you, Loz, for bringing it to our attention, so that what seemed to be off-topic has in fact become beautifully on-topic, and thank you, Zoe, for helping to make it so!

You asked also about Tomas Rosica, and why he said what he did, apparently qualifying what the Pope said. I don't know, Zoe. The only report I have before me is from that same Examiner publication, not necessarily an objectively accurate source, and I would need to see the whole text of what he said and to understand the context in which he said it before I could answer your question.

Has that helped, Zoe?

Yes that helps with the puzzle, seems the Examiner reports things to make them look silly lol. We have a few newspapers over here doing that too.

First of all, Zoe, thank you for posting that. I found the post about the Pope very surprising, particularly in this thread, where it seems distinctly off-topic, and one wonders why the post was made here, and what the point was meant to be.

Unfortunately for the poster, such a tactic often backfires. There is an old saying: he who points a finger at someone or something points four fingers back at himself. (Or herself!)



The post links and relates to the original post about this issue on Page 13 of this thread! You didn't think it was 'distinctly off-topic' then lol. Quite the contrary!

This was posted on my timeline on Facebook this morning. Other than that I don't want to engage with your sniping remarks thank you. You just crack on with your nasty assumptions.

Loz

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

OH shoot I lost my post as I guess Loz was posting at the same time. I will try and say it again *sigh*.

This story about the Pope is all over the Internet and on most exJw forums too. I was going to post it here on this thread but Loz beat me to it. I don't think Loz was being snarky at all. Chappys forum is all over it too as they are atheists mostly so it is a news item that raised a lot of questions.

I guess we all misunderstood the Popes message so they needed to clarify it. Maybe it was a language translation thing and also the Pope was Trying to be positive. He just didnt say well you will go to Hell if you don't seek God out, he said instead that the gift of life is open to all even atheists. He did not bring up the negative aspects of his message being a diplomatic man I would suppose.

Thank you Zoe.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"