xjwsforChrist

Yes, Kassad, you have it right in respect of Orthodox priests.

Anomos, scandals and bad actions sadly abound across all groups of people, even those who profess to be for God. God gave us humans free will, and so as humans we fail. By his goodness and through his generous gifts of grace and forgiveness, and through the sacrifice of his dear Son, even the greatest sinners are given a way back. The Prodigal Son was welcomed with opened arms.

What we should not do is judge a group of people, and their beliefs, by the sins of some of the members, not even those in prominent positions.

Kassad, I know and have known personally some Orthodox priests, and they were very spiritual and holy men.

I am not saying that they all are such, and of course only God knows the heart. We cannot judge another. I've been too to Orthodox services...I don't think they call them Masses. They were filled with the Spirit and were beautiful and moving.

What we should not do is judge a group of people, and their beliefs, by the sins of some of the members, not even those in prominent positions.

Hello and good morning to you Chariklo,

We should never judge anyone individually as our lord says " Stop judging so as not to be judged. For with what judgement you are judging, you will be judged." Matthew 7:2...

But if a group of people and or beliefs does not follow, teach or listen to and obey Christ, as he is our ONLY leader and mediator, and yet teaches even partially but adds their own doctrines, requirements and uses others in place of CHRIST, then " doesn't a LITTLE LEAVEN ferment the whole lump" (or group) thereby the judgement being they cannot be " The Truth."

This is something that those who belong to CHRIST as ambassadors substituting for him have the authoritity to do.
Isn't this situation what our lord showed us as to the WTBS and who they truly were as a group of people and beliefs?

We made a judgement call as to them? We were shown by holy spirit that they are not the truth! That they are bad shephards, twisting the scriptures, misleading sheep, shutting up the kingdom. Not looking to CHRIST as their ONE and only mediator.

We were shown, told to DO, and we have proclaimed by the authority given us by Chirst to " Get out of her!" Revelation 18:4. Out of her if we do not want to share with her in her sins and receive her plagues.
That is a pretty strong judgement I must say!

But for those of us including yourself, we have had NO problem admitting this as to them. Because it is a clear and obvious judgement ( calling a spade a spade)

So if something is not Truth...then it is False! Isn't that a truthful judgement?

Just wanted to share
Love Justmom

I have to agree with dear 'Mom, dear Char (peace and WELCOME back!). On two grounds:

First, Christ, as to the Jews. While he did not judge individuals as to eternal life, he certainly pointed out their individual AND group hypocrisy and blasphemy, for which he condemned their form of worship and the acts of both the leaders AND those who followed them:

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees seat themselves in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [b]They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them[/b].

“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

"But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! [u]You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are[/u].

“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ [u]You blind fools[/u]! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

"Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon [i]you[/i] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation."

Then, to the people who FOLLOWED these, he said:

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of JaHVeH’.”

Matthew 23:1-39; Psalm 118:26

On the second ground, however, I have to agree with her based on your own words often stated here as to the WTBTS. They often show that perhaps you don't really believe (or practice) what you say in this regard:



You have often shared with us how certain WTBTS elders treated/took issue with YOU, and that along with some of their teachings that you could not accept, that was an indication to you as to their falsehood. And so you share with us YOUR condemnation of that religion, which most of us here whole-heartedly agree with. I do not say this to contend or take issue with you, per se, but to (try again) to point out to you the contradiction in what you SAY as to this issue... and what you DO. So that perhaps you will take a moment to REFLECT on it... and SEE... that to US, it is no different than, say, what dear ANOMOS (peace to you!) is doing: calling spades spades. As YOU do.

So, please believe me, dear one, when I say NO contention intended at ALL, but just TRUTH... in the hopes that you might SEE the truth here, if you've a mind... and heart... to do so... and not condemn yourself (to the SAME judgment with which you judge).

I hope this helps, truly!

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellamar, who is NOT contending but only following our dear Lord's direction... and LOVE... by TRYING to perhaps help "snatch" yet "another log out of the fire"... if at ALL possible Jude 23; John 15:5, 6; Amos 4:11)

What we should not do is judge a group of people, and their beliefs, by the sins of some of the members, not even those in prominent positions.



John 8:32 and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him " I am the way, the truth and the life. No one come to the Father except through Jesus.

As Justmom quoted Rev 18:4 Get out of her my people if you do not want to share with her in her sins.

When we see the sins of prominent leaders. We are not told to stay and enjoy whatever good we can find. Instead, we are told " get out of her". The way to our Father and the way to truth is through Christ, not any religion or prominent man.

FinalCall

Well, said, dear FC (mornin' and peace to you, dear brother)! And that admonishment, to "Get OUT of her!" is part of our responsibility to show LOVE to our fellowman! If you KNOW your brother is in danger, can you truly say you LOVE him... if you stand by and do not sound a warning? True, it is up to each one as to whether they will HEED the warning; nothing you do if they won't... except to keep trying. Until they either say, "Speak of it no more!"... or the time to SOUND such warning is past.

Until either of these, however, we ARE our brothers' keeper(s)... especially spiritually. Not masters over their faith, no, but watchers over their eternal lives (as we are watchers/keepers as to their PHYSICAL lives, which life is temporary, so how much more so the one that is ETERNAL?)... so long as they ARE wishing, thirsting, and hoping for such.

Hopefully, any who come here will give us the benefit of the doubt, that that is our sole purpose for sharing some of the TRUTH we share with them: for the benefit of THEIR eternal life... and our own.

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

I too must agree with what JM has shared, as well as Shelby and FinalCall.

Christ and God (and so those who belong to them) warn those that they LOVE; so as to help them. So as to, as Shelby stated, 'snatch them from the fire'. Though it is always the choice of anyone to hear and heed that call and/or warning. But it is made in LOVE, and not in judgment/condemnation.


Peace to all (and also welcome back, Chariklo!),

tammy

We are not judges of people. It is not for us to decide who will fit and who will not enter into God's kingdom.

See how Orthodox high ranking priests fit in the description of the Pharisees by Jesus. I have nothing against individuals. Some priests are very nice people and I can tell that from personal experience too. But their teachings are in error. Why for example they insist to be called 'father' in direct violation of Jesus' command? Now regarding the percentage, it is true that not all are practicing big sins but still you wouldn't expect such a big percentage from those who claim to be God's representatives.

Regarding mass in Greek it is called "Θεία Λειτουργία" aka "Divine Liturgy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Liturgy.

you know, i just find it sad, that it seems the church on the whole immediately started to stray away from the original teachings right after the first generation of christians have died. that's how angry the enemy is in trying to corrupt it. i've been reading a history book on christianity and it depresses me that it seems to have no leading of the Spirit anywhere. The church goes on and on to more and more schisms and divisions and corruptions, each of them thinking they hold the one "truth". Now many of you say to get out of them, I now say, as JWs say when thinking of leaving the organization, "where should we go?".. now you will say "Go to Christ".. here's the problem, I can't always feel Christ (let alone see or hear him), and I can't always feel the Spirit, though I feel them sometimes when my heart is in its greatest moments of openness and purity, small, fickle moments...that goes away once my mind is invaded by toxic thoughts, and there are many of those... i need some role model to look up to, but there is no one...i'm stuck with me, and I am my enemy, I am a horrible sinner, i am alone... where is the true church? is it really composed of individuals choosing to walk away out of popular religion? really? has things really become this desperate? is 'aloneness' part of the perseverance that Christ was talking about? cause weak people like me can't stay with themselves... who then can be saved? well i don't really care about being saved but rather the awkwardness and the unutterable shame of standing face to face with the Father and the Son before the Throne.

sorry this has been a rant

Yes, Anomos, you are right about Divine Liturgy being very important. Its origins go right back to the very beginnings of Christianity.

Catholics also use the term.

When I was musing as to what term the Orthodox churches use in day-to-day parlance to denote a church service, I was thinking more of everyday general reference, as between friends.

In fact, although the western and eastern churches split a thousand years after the birth of Christ, up until that time, for the most part, Christ's followers were one, just as he intended.

John 17:12.

Naturally enough different thinkers explored just what the meaning of it all was. Focused on Christ, nonetheless human beings are individuals and can make mistakes in their interpretations. Fortunately God knows that. Fortunately He loves us. All he asks is that we turn to Him.

Luke 15:24

Kassad, you sound to be rather low at at the minute.

At such times the Psalms can be really helpful.

Psalm 34:18 says

"The Lord is near to the broken-hearted, and saves the crushed in spirit." Some translations say meek.

Those words might help, and this:

http://www.footprints-inthe-sand.com/in ... m/Poem.php

I've sent you a PM.

Kassad wrote:


What you wrote is quite touching, I think a lot of us feel this way, me included but I never thought of it in these terms. Now that you say it I have to say its exactly how I feel quite often.

Chariklo!!!

Good morning to you,

As coming out of the WTBS we understand that they taught us many of the things that our lord is trying to show us as well.

One, understanding that instead of the WTBS being " the truth"...we now know it is CHRIST!
And Peter did say this, that there no where else to turn to BUT to and follow CHRIST.
We were taught this, but because of our needing to be led as sheep, we allowed the organization to step in between US and Christ and play our mediator, and become our way to eternal life in paradise.

We were taught that " Jah is a spirit and those worshipping him MUST worship with spirit and truth."
That in fact HE/ JAH is looking for these kinds of individuals.
So, we might ask ourselves TODAY, if we need to have something we can SEE to worship through, how can we truly walk by faith and not by sight?
John 4:23,24

We need to go to the one hears all prayers and ask for faith. And understand something that we were NEVER taught to do, and that is to come into union with Christ first. This is open to all not just the 144,000. John 6:48-59 Ephesians 2: 13-22
" He that feeds on his body and blood have life within themselves."
" Remaining in union with him is the only way to produce fruits of the spirit."
" And APART from him, we can do NOTHING at all."

We were taught that " Jah does not dwell in handmade temples." ( buildings, churches)

We were taught that Holy Spirit, or the annointing from this is only for a select few.
This is a lie!!!!

We are all horrible sinners and our debt is great. This is why he is the lamb that took away the sins of the world. We need union with him EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Ask for hears to hear our Lords voice in order to follow clearly. He says " HIS sheep hear his voice." John 10
Ask for his will, not ours to be done.

Think about what our lord asks of us in comparison to what man requires through religion.

Ask for Holy Spirit It is free! It will teach and guide us into all truth.

Just wanted to share a few points.
We're here to help
Love to you Justmom

Yes, nice points, Justmom!

Hi there Zoe! Nice colourful picture there, and thanks for the welcome!

Peace to you Kassad!

I went through a stage where I was very lonely also. I WANTED someone to share my faith with... and in person. The loneliness was a tangible thing, and if I was ever going to be driven to join a church/denomination... well, it would have been then. But I did not; that was not the answer; and so I persevered just in Christ, and that isolated incident of loneliness passed.

I don't think the church even made it out of the first generation, without false men rising up from within the Body (as Christ did warn). Yes, it is sad, kassad, I hear you on that. That is because man is like that (divisive, selfish, prideful, wanting people to look at US, etc). But don't think that it is just because Christ had died and resurrected, and was no longer here in the flesh for men to see... because even when He did walk in the flesh, many of his disciples left off from following Him when His teachings did not go the way they wanted/expected.

But are you sure that you don't have Him as a role model to look up to, to listen to? Even if you cannot (always) hear Him, or feel Him (I don't think it is really about a feeling), we do have him to look at in what He is written to have said and done. I did that for the longest time too, just read his words, learned from those teachings and his deeds... and then when I heard from another that He does speak, and I saw that this is backed up in what is written, and I put faith in Him that when I asked, He would answer... no matter how long that took; on His time and not mine, then I asked also for ears to hear.

Because as He said,

"If anyone loves me, they will obey my teachings, and my Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with them."


In the meantime, I simply continued to follow His teachings, as best as I could do so. (which certainly does not mean that i never sinned, because I certainly did, and do, and ask forgiveness for these) So if you love Him, then follow his teachings (and this does give you a role model to look up to, doesn't it?); ask to hear if that is what you want, ask for the Spirit... and then keep your ear and heart open to hear... but don't worry, and leave the rest to Him, and to God. Know that God has heard you and will answer you.



The true church is simply composed of those who belong to Christ. The Body is more about who people are walking TO, than who/what people are walking away from. (even though walking TO Christ, will naturally mean walking away from something that is not the Truth)

Christ is calling His people, His sheep out, yes... so that they do not share in their sins; and when the world does turn on 'her'. So that they may come to Him to have life, because when all is said and done, and "religion" is gone... He will be the One who is here. He will be the only one people have to turn TO.



As for feeling weak and wretched, we all feel weak, wretched, Kassad. Sometimes more than others... but then also joyful, because despite this that we know of ourselves, we have our Lord who loves us knowing all about us, who helps and teaches us, and who forgives us... though He already knows who/what we are. He loves us! We can put our faith in that, in Him.

Even Paul felt as you are feeling, for he said also, "what a wretched man am I" (romans 7:24); and "I am the least of the apostles, and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them-- yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." (1st Corinth 15:9-10)

We are scattered through the world, though some of us have one another in person as well. So some might feel lonely at times; but Christ IS here. He is our lifeline, and we can call out to Him, look to Him, depend upon Him. Perhaps the loneliness is part of training, so that we learn TO depend upon Him, to call out to Him, so that we are prepared and stronger for what may come. Then He may lead us to one another, the brothers and sisters that we have found from and in Him.



Peace and love to you,

tammy