xjwsforChrist

This place is turning into a Kingdom Hall.... so far we got:

1. Undeserved kindness instead of Grace
2. Torture "pole" instead of cross
3. God's active force instead of the Holy Spirit
4. Jesus being redundant and confusing with the thief

It's plainly obvious what Jesus said on the cross. Stop taking play book pages from an anti-Christ organization, it's shameful.

-Sab

Here is the thing though.

In Luke, every time he uses the word "today" - semeron in greek- it means TODAY:

Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luk 5:26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying , We have seen strange things to day.
Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye , and tell that fox, Behold , I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected .
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following : for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 19:5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up , and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste , and come down ; for to day I must abide at thy house.
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Luk 22:34 And he said , I tell thee, Peter, the spammer shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done .

With the exceptions of Luke 12:28 and 13:32

That said, it is not 100% on either side of the argument.

Honestly, I think the only people that bother with these arguments are the people (like the JW's) that CREATE them to make themselves seem like that have "the real (tm) truth" !

I re-state that, IMO, the point of that passage was NOT when but that he WAS Going.

The bottom line is... it does not matter how he worded it as much as it matters that it clearly was not that day. Because Christ Himself was not in paradise that day.

As Psacramento said above, the promise is more important than the when.

There is also this passage to consider:

Hebrews 4:6-7

It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."



Now if someone can dispute that Christ himself was not in paradise that day, without resorting to ad hominem attack and insults against the members of this forum, by all means... do so. If you cannot, then perhaps you might consider reading over the rules of this forum. Again.


Peace,
tammy

Good morning Char....

Thank you for your clarification. I did not think you would agree.
The voice of my Lord who IS the Holy Spirit , the son of Jah, the father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one I follow.
He came to know ME and called me out of the WTBS before I knew Shelby. ( I had met her this all)

It is him I follow not her. I do not expect you to believe though. We have come to know and love each other because of the spiritual bond that we share as part of the body of Christ and in sharing the same spirit.
He continues to guide us, train us and discipline us in His love and kindness. It is his voice that we follow not each others. But again I do not expect you to believe this.

I realize that we all will have an accounting as you said. And CHRIST said " You will know my disciples by the love they have among themselves." And this would be the identifying mark of his true follows.
Truth does not most of the time tell us what we want to hear therefore feeling like it is NOT LOVE....
But we see how unpopular it made our lord, and how unloving and crazy he was accused of being.

You mentions million around the world are hearing his voice as well. By their fruits you will recognize them. And this our lord will determine I agree. We owe nothing but love to each other even when we do not agree.

But I do realize again Char that although we do not always agree, and that is okay, the biggest disagreements come from the structure you put your loyalty into and the ones you follow inside there.
I have mentioned too many times, I cannot see what I see about the WTBS and then preach that the RCC or anywhere else...IS TRUTH!

Can't do it my sister!!!!!! Can't do it!!!!

Christ IS the truth!!!!

Love to you always
Justmom

Char and Sab,

I'm all for open discussion, thus I see no need to attack any person's viewpoint here. In making your comments, since I already contributed to this thread, I am taking it personally, and I respectfully ask that you desist. If you disagree with some comments, please present your viewpoint, but don't make attacks on us. And before you say that I am a follower of Shelby's, I can say with a certainty that I am not. I do not always agree with things she posts, but I don't feel the need to attack HER. Silence on my part is not necessarily agreement.

That said, please, let's continue...

For all...



Interesting thoughts. As for the last one, Christ knew he would die and be raised on the third day. Wouldn't that preclude him from going anywhere?



I LOVE this! Thanks, Paul!

Good morning Sab.....

Not a Kingdom Hall by any means, but a forum that IS xJws for CHRIST.

1. Undeserved kindness instead of Grace

Point made though right?

2. Torture "pole" instead of cross

Point made though right ? Maybe some aren't quite ready to hear cross yet? Lotta baggage with the WTBS. I remember I wasn't ready for a while in the beginning.


3. God's active force instead of the Holy Spirit

Jahs Holy Spirit is an active force isn't it? Was the point made ?



4. Jesus being redundant and confusing with the thief

Not redundant, not confusing to the thief ( were you there.) confusion would make Christ look like a liar and that he is not.

Sab, my brother. You need to deal with your internal pain and anger you still have for the WTBS and possibly family. We love you and please my brother, let Christ take your pain and heal your suffering.

Love to you always
Justmom

Justmom, I don't think you realise how very much like JW's some of you sound to those who are not but who are aware of their teachings. Actually, that's no blame to you and not surprising seeing you come from a JW background. But, you just do.

The Holy Spirit, however active and however effective in its force, is not a force per se but a Person.

Your final words to Sab sound very much on the attack.

However...

Leaving Quietly, no-one here is making personal attacks. They are, however, insistently making a number of points, some founded on logic or common sense and some born of passionate belief.

Whereas I know that unless by a miracle you are most unlikely to become a Catholic, Roman or otherwise,nevertheless when the Church or my beliefs are subjected to the sort of attack we've seen recently, I am impelled to answer, and inevitably that will be with such verbal force and competence as I have.

Your final plea and exhortation to Sab is one I personally find to be full of manipulation and distortion, thoroughly objectionable, the sort of thing I'd expect to find in a Revivalist meeting where people come up to the front and get healed, succumbing to emotional pressure and blackmail.

It is disgusting.

Oh, and as a postscript. of course you follow Christ, but you also follow Shelby, and imitate her with the voice thing, and it is just plain not good, and unhealthy. You are not alone here and I mean no personal offence.

Christ was said to preach to the spirits in Hades during his three day absence from the world after his crucifixion (1 Peter 3: 18-20). The third definition of "paradeisos" on BibleSuite says this:



The reason Christ told the thief that he would be in paradise with HIM on that DAY was because by the end of the day both would be in Hades. The thief would be going to the paradise in Hades because he accepted Christ as his savior before he died rather than the torturous part. Christ would be traveling through all parts of Hades alive to preach and would see the thief there. This would all happen within that day because both were heading towards their physical death.



Hello Justmom, thanks for the kind words as usual. Your patience is astounding! However, all the points you made are in line with anti-Christ doctrine and understanding. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but they are among the destructive heresies mentioned in 2 peter 2. They are designed to ensnare, not enlighten.

-Sab

Char said...

Your final words to Sab sound very much on the attack.

Not attack Char but a true wish for peace and healing. I share the same history and past baggage and I realize Sab has a lot inside he needs still to release to our Lord and master. He reminds me a little of my oldest son and they are the same age.



Oh, and as a postscript. of course you follow Christ, but you also follow Shelby, and imitate her with the voice thing, and it is just plain not good, and unhealthy. You are not alone here and I mean no personal offence.

Nothing personal taken Char. One Lord, One faith, One baptism.

Those of the body as members belonging to Christ as the head, although different in parts ( body) share ONE spirit, so I would hope that there is some sound of similar unity as the bond is as one flesh in a marriage therefore not causing
Christ to be divided. I don't see how that could be unhealthy!

Love Justmom

The reason Christ told the thief that he would be in paradise with HIM on that DAY was because by the end of the day both would be in Hades. The thief would be going to the paradise in Hades because he accepted Christ as his savior before he died rather than the torturous part. Christ would be traveling through all parts of Hades alive to preach and would see the thief there. This would all happen within that day because both were heading towards their physical death.


Sab....

Think about these two statements. ??

Now Hades/ Hell is paradise?

Love ya Justmom

Justmom, what you seem to be doing is observing my internal pain (which I cannot hide from others) and using it to assess my relationship with God and his Son. You are essentially saying that because I feel the pain that I do that I must be alienated from God. This comes from a misunderstanding of a scripture found in Psalms:



What the verse is saying is that we must have God so that we do not fall. When we cast our cares onto the Lord we don't cease having those cares. Human problems are dealt with in tandem with God, not merely as observers. The Scripture is not saying that pain is the indicator of a lack of connection with the divine. I am not shaken because I have cast my cares onto the Lord.

Life is pain, remember? Why did Christ yell out, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" just before he died? Because it hurt.

-Sab

A part of it is, according to the Jews.

-Sab

This. This is how i recognized Shelby also... and because what her lord told her was the same as what my lord told me. Same Lord, same Spirit.


Also, there was one time on jwn there was a huge attack going on of one poster (not anyone here), and I was practically in tears, so distressed over what people were doing... and I kept trying to speak up... then I saw Chalam's (Stephen) name as the last commenter, and I did not even have to look at what he wrote. I felt immediate relief... because despite the differences of some doctrines of religion between us... I recognized him as a brother in Christ, and I knew exactly how he would comment, and that I would not be the only voice on that thread trying to stop the attack from others.

Peace,
tammy

Wha...???


I read my final plea to Sab. I'm not quite sure where you get that it's manipulative, distorted or thoroughly objectionable. I'm sorry you feel that way, and I certainly hope Sab didn't feel that way. The link to my plea is below. If I stated anything poorly, please accept my apologies.
http://xjwsforchrist.forumatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=623&start=3

Frankly, I enjoy ALL the discussion here, including from you and Sab. I don't enjoy the bickering. I've made that clear. Thus, I take no part in it. I don't attack anyone's beliefs here because I am not qualified to do such.


None taken. I do believe that one CAN hear Christ. If that means I am a follower of Shelby in this respect, well, then, guilty as charged. However, as I've stated many times, I do not hear Christ personally.

Actually, yes according to some views.
Paradise ( Abraham's bossum as it was called by some Jews) is a part/level of Hades.
Realize that Hades/Sheol was the place the dead went to before the resurrection ( unless they were special like Elijah and went right to Heaven, or one of the levels of Heaven).
The notion of Hell as the WHOLE Place being torment and punishment is a much later view.
People that believe Paradise to be part of Sheol point to the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man where both were close enough to be in the "same place" but far enough to be in two very different places.