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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:49 pm 
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AGUEST SAID

Good morning and peace to you all!

In response to dear Crim's (peace to you, dear one!) comments that:

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Quote:

compare faith to a muscle; you exercise it, it gets bigger, stronger.


and...

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opposition is one of the ways a Christian keeps faith alive. If he's smart, it will also help him refine his faith.


... I feel compelled to clarify a bit more on this matter and I must ask your patience and forgiveness because I fear some will misunderstand my intent (I hope not). Although part of it may be because I am a bit pedantic the underlying reason is because of the lack of ACCURACY that "christian" religion has fomented as to "faith." Please excuse my caps, then, because I am not yelling, but only emphasizing (and it's easier to do than bolding/italicizing just now). Okay, then...

Here, I get the impression that some are equating faith... with belief. While I realize that the two are considered interchangeable by public opinion and perhaps conventional wisdom, the two actually are NOT the same. And this truly is NOT mere semantics.

ALL "christians" have some belief. For example, some have the belief, say, that the WTBTS is "the truth", etc. Some have the strong belief that "Jehovah" will bring "Armageddon" upon the world (and thus, their enemies) at some point. Because of this, they put their faith (i.e., "assured expectation of the thing hoped for" - here, that the WTBTS is the "truth", that "Armgeddon" is what they think it is and will do what they believe, that "Jehovah" is the "true" God, etc.) and NOT because they have some "EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION of the REALITY"... though "NOT beheld".

There is NO evidence of any of this, other than the appearance of "growth" that these are constantly referred to. Yet, in looking at that "evidence" (which means they DO "behold") they utterly MISS the points made by, say, the Gideon account and the admonishment against taking a census (which is okay, yes, for the superior authorities so that they know how much of what they need to meet the needs of their people, etc., but NOT for the Body of Christ... because it's not UP to us, we do not call OR choose, and we're SUPPOSED to be few, not many).

Their "faith" then, IN their institutions, is built on evidence that IS "beheld" (see with the eyes!). They have institutions and buildings and membership "growth" and images and leaders who appear... on the OUTSIDE... to be blessed, etc.,... to LOOK at! All of which they NEED... because they WALK... by SIGHT.

True faith is not like this... and it's not in things "beheld" in that manner. It is based on evidence given IN SPIRIT, and so, "NOT beheld" with eyes of flesh. For example, faith in God/Christ. Faith follows the thing HEARD... not SEEN. As Christ is recorded to have said to Thomas:

"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." - John 20:29

(Note: You may need to look up the Greek to understand that this is what was recorded. It is important because it is NOT speaking of those who put their faith in Christ but never saw/walked with him - it is speaking of those who put their faith in him, although they DON'T see him. They do so... because they can HEAR him. Again, FAITH... FOLLOWS... THE THING HEARD).

Are there outward manifestations of that "evidence"? Yes. But such are not for the faithFUL; the faithFUL don't need physical manifestations because THAT is walking... by SIGHT. The faithFUL don't walk by sight; they walk... by FAITH. In [the voice of] the One NOT seen:

"MY sheep listen to MY voice; I know them, and they follow ME." John 10:27

Physical manifestations are for the faithLESS: those who WANT faith, and perhaps are even asking for it... but don't have it, because if they DID they wouldn't NEED a physical manifestation. Like Peter, who needed to walk on the water himself... in order to believe! And Thomas, who needed to see the holes... in order to believe!

Like it would have been for Noah if he had to SEE it rain... before having the FAITH to build the ark. Because he had FAITH, though... in the VOICE of the One who SPOKE to him and TOLD him to build the ark, hence, giving him EVIDENCE (the voice speaking to him, which he couldn't deny!)... he "followed" the One whose voice he heard!

Because the faithFULKNOW that the evidence they receive IN THE SPIRIT... is even more reliable than what is perceived by the eyes. Because it is the flesh that deceives us - what appears to the eyes. I offer as "evidence" of this truth, how many times each one of us THOUGHT we'd read a certain scripture and verse... and would swear on a stack of Bibles that it "said" one thing... only to read it NOW... and SEE... that it says something entirely different! Our eyes... deceived us!

Or perhaps you know someone who, based on what you SEE... SEEMS to be one way. But as you get to know that person, you "see"... that they are much different than what you had perceived, because of what was before your EYES.

This is why Christ referred to some as "blind." The truth is that most of man IS blind. Literally. Perhaps not physically, no, but as I've always shared with you there is more, much more, beyond the physical.

So, let's take faith... as that relates to Christ. One doesn't necessarily have to believe that Christ is. Yes, I know that there's a verse that states otherwise, but I offer to you that Saul of Tarsus didn't believe that Christ was. For him, Messiah had not come, yet. Yet, Christ revealed himself to Saul. Did Saul SEE him? Nope. He HEARD him. Thankfully for Saul, there were others with him. Who, though, was with Noah? Abraham? Jacob? Moses? Samuel? David? Ananias? Philip? Peter? John on Patmos... when they all heard Christ speak to them?

So, now, to tie this all back into the topic at hand (does opposition help build faith)... the answer is that there really is only two things that builds faith:

1. Asking for and receiving it from Christ, as a FRUIT of God's holy spirit! Christ is the Tree of Life... and those who belong to him are the "branches" of that tree. HE is the "Tree" that bears the "fruit" of God's holy spirit... and as branches "in" HIM... we are supposed to "produce" the SAME "fruit"! Hence, HIS faith was perfect; ours should reach for that pattern (although we will always fall short) - Luke 11:13; John 15:1-8, 16; Galatians 5:22; Mark 9:24

Please note the translation of the Greek word "apistia" at Mark 9:24 is NOT merely "unbelief" as many Bible versions present, but:

"1) unfaithfulness, faithless
2) want of faith, unbelief
3) weakness of faith"

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... G570&t=NIV

2. LISTENING to the voice... of Christ. Again, faith FOLLOWS... the thing HEARD. Noah BUILD the ark... NOT because he'd seen it rain, but because he listened to the VOICE that told he was GOING to.

Which brings me to why I say that opposition doesn't build faith - opposition has nothing to DO with building faith; however, it can be instrumental in undermining faith... by wearing down those who are faithful. The flesh can get tired of being opposed, of having to fight... and so cause one to seek an "easier" way, including leaving off from faith. Going along to get along, even if it means denying one's faith. And it's much easier, even desirable for some, to deny faith in a VOICE... which no one else hears... than to deny faith in a "visible representation of the Lord" on earth (i.e., a religious institutions and its teachings/doctrines).

People don't think you're crazy for putting your faith in and following a religion. Well, a mainstream/universally recognized/"acceptable"/politcally correct religion. Indeed, most EXPECT you to, some even taking issue if you DON'T. Even those who claim NO belief (in a god) - they would MUCH rather have you profess belief in and association with a religion (most probably so that they can debate the ridiculousness of such) than to simply profess faith... IN THE VOICE OF CHRIST. The latter's main issue with this is because they can't debate/discredit it! "How can we say you're lying??" They can't... and so such a profession drives THEM "crazy"! If they can't dispute it, then as far as they're concerned it cannot be.

Which takes me to dear Crim's next comment, that:

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the admonition to keep reading the scriptures day and night is essentially telling us to keep spiritual matters in the forefront of our minds constantly.


But there IS no such admonition for christians! To the contrary, the admonition was exactly the OPPOSITE:

"You diligently study the Scriptures because you THINK that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to ME to have life." John 5:39, 40

For US, it is NOT "go to the Bible," or "go to church", or "associate yourself with this or that religion." It is a simple and very concise... "Come to ME."

That "come to me" does not include "by going THROUGH" anything or anyone else! It is a DIRECT invitation.

It is the invitation that was heralded by the Apostles and other first century and later disciples. To COME... and do so alone, as one's own representative, to the One so CALLING. Hence:

]"Let ALL those wishing... and thirsting... Come! Take "life's water" free!"

Faith, then, dear ones... isn't built up by being opposed. It is built UP... by Christ. By asking him for MORE, if you lack... and by LISTENING to his VOICE. Because the more you LISTEN... the more you HEAR... and thus, the more you LEARN (as to that which is "spiritual" - of the spirit)... and thus, the more you KNOW... so as to have MORE faith... in SPITE of opposition.

I hope this helps, truly!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, the One who SPEAKS... from the "heavens" (spirit realm)... to OUR spirits (the man we are on the INSIDE),

SA


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:49 pm 
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AGUEST SAID

WELL said, dear LeAnn! The greatest of love and peace to you and yours, dear one!

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:50 pm 
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HAGGELOS SAID

And take note of what the BlueLetterBible states for Romans 10:17,

So
G686
ἄρα ara

faith
G4102
πίστις pistis

comes from

G1537
ἐκ ek

hearing,
G189
ἀκοή akoē

and
G1116
Γόμορρα Gomorra

hearing
G189
ἀκοή akoē

by
G1223
διά dia

the word

G4487
ῥῆμα rhēma

of Christ.

G5547
Χριστός Christos


Note the phrase: “the word”
or "rhēma"

1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
b) speech, discourse
1) what one has said
c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)
1) an utterance
2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
a) concerning some occurrence
2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
b) so far as it is a matter of command
c) a matter of dispute, case at law


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:50 pm 
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AGUEST SAID

THANK you for that, dear Haggelos (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). Your comments actually corroborate what I mean: one CANNOT rely on what sees with the eyes! One can read a verse and then BELIEVE that it says one thing that is does not... OR that it means what it states because of how it's been translated/transliterated. We CANNOT, however, walk by SIGHT... and be led... "into ALL truth". Because, again, the eyes can DECEIVE. So, again, thank you for breaking down the verse for us.

Also, I my sincere apologies to everyone else for the many (MANY!) typos in my post. I was distracted (by some personal "stuff" and, of course, a couple/few puppies... but wanted to get it out to you all while it was still fresh in my mind and heart.

Peace to you all!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:50 pm 
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CRIMINY SAID

Quote:
AGuest wrote:
Also, I my sincere apologies to everyone else for the many (MANY!) typos in my post. I was distracted (by some personal "stuff" ...


Well I'm sorry AGuest, that's just not good enough. We have standards here and you clearly do not seem up to the......

Okay. We'll let it go this time.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:51 pm 
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CRIMINY SAID

Now I must google Blue Letter Bible
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:54 pm 
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AGUEST SAID

Well, THANK you, dear, dear Crim (the greatest of love and peace to you!) for that "pass" and kind consideration - LOLOLOL!

The Blue Letter Bible site is a WONDERFUL tool! It has many more features than I use but one can look up a scripture/verse in many different Bible versions there (Biblegateway.com is also a good source, as is Biblecc.com).

The main features I love about BlueLetterBible.com is the "Concordance" - You click on the little "C" box next to the verse and it brings it up in the Hebrew or Greek. Then you can click on the individual words and try to get a sense of what the verse MIGHT have said/been referring to. I say "might" because all we have today are translations... which can be inaccurate for several reason, including language limitations. Which is why looking to Christ is the BEST way to know what was originally intended - doing so will help one "see", for example, where the scribe may have chosen the wrong transliteration of a word (which is why some verses either don't seem to make sense or seem to contradict other verses).

But check it out - I think you'll really like it once you get a feel for how it works and how to use it.

Again, peace to you... and hopefully my typo rate fell with this post - LOLOL!
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Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:55 pm 
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TEC SAID


I am back from vacation! I'm sorry I didn't do an official 'gonna be gone for a week' thread. I should have, just to let anyone wondering know why I wasn't around. Though, before the vacation, I was just crazy hectic busy with work and all sorts of other stuff. I have been looking forward to things calming down (which won't happen for another week... it is back to school week here), so that I can sit here with my tea and talk with everyone, and well... BE here more. (and also jwn, which I have totally neglected over the past month!)

I think things will start to pick up after the first week of September for most everyone, Glad

To answer some of your question in the op though... I do not need opposition to keep my faith alive. I am comfortable with my faith. I don't start to doubt if I'm not arguing it. I just feel comfortable, as it is just part of me (sometimes perhaps complacent though as well, lol) So I think opposition simply makes that faith more 'out there' for others who might be reading or listening.

Opposition can however get me to think about new things regarding faith, Christ, and God... and all that goes with. Raises questions I might not have considered, and then gets me to search and ask for the answers to those questions. Which can be an exciting journey of learning new spiritual things - as well as understanding some past, present or future things. Most rewarding, and of peace, would be understanding more and more of Christ and God, their plan, mercy, love, and way.

But I don't need opposition to do the above... just discussion, including discussion with others of faith. Perhaps just not as 'on the spot', lol! Inner reflection, and listening in spirit, will do the same... but for me (to date) this happens more gradually.

Opposition is probably much more interesting to listen to though

Peace to you!

tammy


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