xjwsforChrist

CRIMINY SAID

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: Get out of her = no more church?
It has been about a year since I DA'd and the thought of joining another church has been on my mind lately. The one thing that stops me is my understanding of Babylon the Great and the scriptural admonition to "get out of her."

I have heard other interpretations about what Babylon the Great is; Roman Empire, modern day middle east region... but those don't really make sense to me.

If BtG really does represent religion then joining another church is out of the question.

I would really like to hear other thoughts on this. What is your understanding of BtG and how it plays into other religions?

YPPUPLLEH SAID

I'm not familiar with "BtG" being a symbol for religion. I understand it's a concept/symbol talked about in the Bible. It would seem odd for a religious text to include a warning to stay away from itself
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

DING SAID

Before deciding what the New Testament meaning of heretical worship is, don't we first have to determine what true New Testament Christianity is?

How do we determine that? From the scriptures. Study the scriptures first, then look for churches that best match them. That said, don't look for a perfect church. There isn't one.

Please don't assume that "Babylon the Great" = anything the WTS brands as false or "Christendom." To do that would be to let the WT continue to control your thinking.

XTRACTOR SAID

Well said Ding!

1. Read the Bible to get to know the true doctrines
(yes, individuals CAN do this) John, Acts, Romans, & Ephesians together contain 99% of the vital doctrines of the NT.
2. Find a church that matches those doctrines.

I can be a rather long process so don't get frustrated! You can investigate a church online before you visit. Legitimate churches won't have a problem with people doing this.
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“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Jesus said this.) Matt 11:28

TEC SAID

A church is not a problem, imo. A church is a group of people coming together to share their faith. We do that here as well.

Religions can be a problem though. Especially those that tell you what you can/can't believe... what rules you must follow... what doctrines you must accept. Religions are a problem when they tell you that you must go through them to get to God. (putting themselves in the seat of Christ... because there is one mediator between man and God=>Christ)

Religions that demand you serve them, rather than the other way around... I find that to be a problem as well.


"Get out of her".. does apply to these, imo. These do not allow you to come to Christ and God, because they are too busy telling you to come to them.

Peace,
tammy

DING SAID

Tammy,

I agree with a lot of what you said. Not all religions are controlling, though, and there must be some agreement on key teachings in order to have fellowship.

For example, if person A believes that Jesus is God and should be worshiped and person B believes that Jesus is Michael the archangel and that it would be blasphemy to worship him, the two positions aren't compatible. Similarly, with Person C who believes salvation is by grace alone through faith in Christ and his sacrifice alone and Person D who believes salvation is a combination of faith and various works that must be performed.

TEC SAID

True, Ding, that not all religions are controlling.

I think the people in your example show how certain doctrines or teachings might cause division, though. This mainly applies to those who consider all teachings other than their own to be false. But there are also many who believe some things differently, but who still consider one another to be brothers/sisters in Christ... with one teacher: Christ.

I mean people are going to have divisions anyway ... but having doctrines that must be accepted can encourage those divisions.

However, I find that it is the deeds that bring people together... feeding the hungry, clothing/housing the poor and homeless. Showing love. We could have fifty different, disagreeable sects of Christianity... but the spirit of Christ might still be seen in them all in how they treat others, mostly how they help others.

Just some of my observations. I am sure that others can add to or put those thoughts in a new light that with their own personal experiences/observation.

Peace
tammy

CRIMINY SAID

Thanks for the feedback. I guess my first question should have been to ask what your interpretation of BtG was and then go from there.



Although I learned my understanding of BtG from the Watchtower corporation, I retain that understanding (with modifications) due to personal examination of it and other interpretations. That BtG refers to the institutions of religions seemed to fit all the pieces best.

Extractor wrote:




Absolutely! Reading the bible without a Watchtower whispering in my ear has been a work in progress from the day I began fading two years ago. However, I have no expectations of finding a church that fits my understanding of things exactly nor will I tolerate a church trying to force my thinking AT ALL.

My interest in attending a church was to find spiritually minded people to associate with.

NAMBO SAID

If anything will get me banned this will.

Babylon the Great has various identifying scriptures, lots of interpretations fit some, but I can only find one that fits them all.

Lets start with Revelation18 and the results of the fall of Babylon :- 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Now the JW s who claim BTG is false religion, always have to have some lame reasoning to back their interpretations, for this one its that if false religion falls, there will be no more Christmas and so nobody will buy Christmas cards anymore.

Firstly, I think people would carry on celebrating it anyway, just call it a different name like Xmas, it certainly wouldnt end commerce though, you would still but a new car or TV when you need one.

How about though if BTG is International banking, the Merchants would then have a reason to weep, there would be no commence if there is no monetary system!

and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And how indeed has the fiat monetary system where money is drawn out of thin air in the form of debt resulted in an abundance of spending power for the masses. No wonder Western merchants became so rich.

Rev 17 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Back in the middle ages, the Catholic Church did indeed reign over the Kings of the Earth, but the book of Revelation is written about the Lords Day, the end, does religion pull the strings behind modern governments or is it the International banking families?

Lord Rothschild said, "give me control over the issue of a nations money, and i care not who makes the laws", what he was saying was, if you control a Nations money, you control the nation.

1909 British Prime Minister David Lloyd George stated the most powerful, man in Britain is Lord Rothschild, after the Treaty of Versallies, he said that International Bankers ruled over the proceedings with the authority of Absolute Monachs.
Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli who was Jewish reported government as being controlled from behind the scenes.

Here in Britain today we have a Prime Minister who is the Grandson of a Jewish banker, the opposition leader is Jewish, and its all presided over by a Jewish Speaker, 80% of Members of Parliament are in the Conservative/Labour friends of Israel, they do not make the higher positions unless they are.
The situation is even worst in the House of Lords, Baroness Tonge announced that both the Conservative and Labour parties are controlled by Israel, and that she wouldn't be surprised if her own party, (Liberals) where as well.

I will leave any further research to you if you are interested, you could for instance Google Members of the Senate with dual Israeli nationality, you will understand why America and the West can so easily be used by Israel to destroy all her Islamic enemies in all these Middle Eastern wars of Western Aggression, Google who is pushing for military action against Iran and the likely result of that which could be WW3 which leads us nicely into our next point.

Rev 18 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Now this identifying blood guilt can be found elsewhere in the Bible, at Matthew 23 where Jesus is saying the following to the Jewish rulers of Jerusalem

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,

7 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets,

I cannot go into detail about Jewish banking money being behind the English Civil war, the French revolution, The Russian Revolution, the World Wars, suffice to say the destruction of Monarchy by these revolutions opens the door to "democracy" and what do you need to obtain power in a democracy?, lots of money.

Rev 17 I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

The Biblical notion of Harlot is equally valid to describe an unfaithful wife,
if false religion was always false and not therefore in a relationship with God, how can it have been unfaithful to her?
If you read through the Old Testament, you will find countless scriptures that describe both Israel and Jerusalem described as being Harlots, for indeed Israel was in a marriage covenant with God.

This post will become too long, I have just hinted at the evidence of who BTG really is, doubtless I will now be accused of Antisemitism even if at this point I point out that Iam referring to the leaders of Israel, Zionists as many as of whom are Christian as Jewish, and those that are "Jewish" dont actually look very Jewish to me, rather the scripture in Revelation 2 v 8 comes to mind

and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Whist the real Jews suffer at their hands in sacrifices that result in the formation of Israel, I wonder how many Rothschild s died at Auschwitz?

GLADIATOR SAID


Like so much of the Bible, Babylon the Great can be interpreted in so many ways to mean almost anything. Each new empire can be said to be symbolised by Babylon the Great; Rome, Constantinople, the British Empire, the USA. Some say that The Roman Catholic Church fits the bill.

Those in power at present are openly talking of plans for a New World Order. If that comes about people will say that world power is Babylon the Great. Perhaps this ambiguity is deliberate.

Revelation is a romping yarn that can be applied to any time in history or the future and applied symbolically or applied to an invisible spirit realm. Clever chap that Apostle John, even if like John Lennon he had a little help relaxing his mind?

PSACRAMENTO SAID

To a 1st century Jew, Babylon the Great was the Roman empire.
Period.
Historical writings have shown that.
Up until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire, Christians were persecuted, at times heavily so.
Under the context of those persecutions, the writings of John of patmos become very clear.
YET, as with many prophecies, there is also a hint of the future because, as we know, history does indeed tend to repeat itself and know one knew that better than the Jewish converts to Christianity.

JUSTMOM SAID

Criminy

Welcome!

Babylon the great is a "harlot" remember in revelation!

It is the entity as a whole that has enslaved Israel or those who claim to be in a covenant with Jah and His Son.

Partaking (taking communion) and saying you belong to Christ as your husbandly owner/ being a bride/ a VIRGIN...... that you have one leader/ master that holy spirit adopted you as a son and now teaches you Truth.....
and THEN you use any organized leader or religion to take the place of ANY of these things....

you become a harlot yourself because you already had a husband/owner and were a virgin(not belonging to anyone else)

therefore we are admonished at Revelation 18:4 "To get out" Quit touching that which is unclean so HE can take us in as a son or daughter.

That is my testimony of what I heard in leaving the organization. Others have to decide for themselves how or what they hear/heard.

justathought
justmom

AGUEST SAID


I have to run out, dear Crim (peace to you!), but given what dear 'Mom shared above (peace to you, my dear sister!), I want to leave you with the following verses from the Revelation... and ask you to think, ask, even pray about what the verses are speaking of:

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb." Revelation 14:4

"Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." Revelation 17:1, 2

"The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. And upon her forehead was written: “Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother of Harlots and of the Filth of The Earth.” Revelation 17:4, 5

I will elaborate more, if desired, when I return (unless someone else beats me to it - wink!), but ask you to consider, in light of "Babylon the Greats conduct... and "parenthood":

What is/who are the "women" referred to in Revelation 14:4?

Again, I exhort you to simply ASK, but do so in FAITH (James 1:5-8; Luke 11:13), NOT doubting that you will receive what you ask for... understanding.

Peace to you... and back in a bit!
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Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

LISA SAID

I have been to a few churches to see if I could find fellowship but I don´t fit in anywhere.

Today I have contact with some other people of the Christian faith but am mostly on my own with the Lord.Reading,digging,praying. I find it difficult to get the teachings of the WT out of my head because some things I still believe and I need (want) to find out what to keep,what to throw out, also I still struggle with allowing myself to read certain things. Does that sound crazy?
Some people seem to be able to just let the whole JW thing go,I wish I could do that

I´m with Nambo here, also the "ruling class" has infiltrated many-if not most-churches, using them for their own goal.
When I got baptized the buzz words were "the new world order"...today that gives me the creeps, it does show however who the true leaders of the JW are.
Many times I have seen the question: where does all the WT money go? My guess is that it goes to the Rothchilds because I think they own the WT.

NAMBO SAID

Hi again Lisa,
Regarding the "ruling class" having infiltrated many churches, Revelation 17 does call Babylon the Great "The Mother of the Harlots", so not only is She a Harlot, but she has given birth to Harlots, most probably by infiltrating them as you say.

Now around the 15th century I think, Spain, as has most country's, kicked the Jews out for the reasons we discuss here, so the Sanhedrin issued an edict that Jews should "convert" to the Catholic faith, in order to infiltrate and subvert it, this is what lead to the Spanish Inquisition, to try and find these corrupters.

You mention the New World Order was the Buzz word, are you talking about amongst JWs?, I thought JWs where so engrossed in 1914 that they where unaware of what is happening in the world around them today.

I too struggle Spiritually without a religion, but I consider the Two Witnesses will soon arrive when the NWO comes, and they will guide us where to go and how to worship, so just have to have Jesus as your Priest to help you in the meantime.