xjwsforChrist

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Greetings:

Recently I have had a discussion at the local soup kitchen with a Baptist Minister on the topic of Faith and Love in the working out of God's purpose and our responsibility.

What I mean is this minister (named Tim) insists that all that is needed in order to gain entrance into the Kingdom (Heaven as far as he is concerned) is Faith, whereas I myself pointed him towards 1 Corinthians 13:2 " and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
and then 1 Corinthians 13:13 " And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Matthew 21:28-32
Contemporary English Version (CEV)

A Story about Two Sons
28 Jesus said:

I will tell you a story about a man who had two sons. Then you can tell me what you think. The father went to the older son and said, “Go work in the vineyard today!” 29 His son told him that he would not do it, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 The man then told his younger son to go work in the vineyard. The boy said he would, but he didn’t go. 31 Which one of the sons obeyed his father?

“The older one,” the chief priests and leaders answered.



These scriptures indicate to me (at least) that while Faith is important, that without Love faith means nothing. I mean Judas Iscariot had Faith that Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God, yet still betrayed him because of a lack of Love. The Adversary has Faith in these things as well but because of a lack of Love for Yahoveh still betrayed him and seeks to turn all mankind away from God.

Still despite these scriptures and the examples cited Tim (and his wife Melissa) both refer to John 8:24
New International Version (NIV)

"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

and


Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

So the question remains are we saved by Faith only despite how much we might Love God or are we saved by Grace (undeserved kindness) because we demonstrate our Love for God and Christ by doing things we actually don't want to do?

It seems to me that Love is the answer because first and foremost God IS Love.

Then there is this scripture.


John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It indicates that God loved US but all we have to do is believe (have Faith) in the one he sent.


Paul seems to indicate (1 Cor. 13:2) that Faith is meaningless without Love, but Lazarus (John) says Faith is essential and Love isn't even mentioned. So which is it? Is it one or the other or both (which seems to be the case to me).

Your Servant and Fellow Slave of Christ,
Morgan

I'm hoping I can find an answer to this that will satisfy Tim and his wife.
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

TEC SAID

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject:
Perhaps the pastor is mixing up faith and belief. You can believe in someone without having faith IN that someone. If you have faith IN that someone, then you believe what they teach as well, and you follow them. Christ gave the command that we are to love one another as He loves us.

In any case, there is also this verse, Morgan:

Matthew 7:21-22

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"


The men in the above obviously believed in Christ, because they called him Lord and they did things in His name. But HE still never knew THEM, and He sent them away from Him.

Peace,
tammy

PTERIST SAID

Hi Med.....
***Paul seems to indicate (1 Cor. 13:2) that Faith is meaningless without Love, but Lazarus (John) says Faith is essential and Love isn't even mentioned. So which is it? Is it one or the other or both (which seems to be the case to me). ******

This is how I see this, "salvation" is not a ONE time deal, as like ..*** "I believe" boom your saved ! *****.....I believe "salvation" is a process as scripture calls for "sanctification" and maturity and faithfulness to the end of our life.....

Our first Step IS FAITH and is the door way to accept and believe what Christ has achieved for us....forgiveness of sins, that we are now made fully aware of, and the New Life of the resurrected Christ to overcome satan, sin and death..... we are now in a saved state, based on FAITH.
The growth through sanctification perfects us in the quality of his divine LOVE that will be eternally needed in eternity. This unity of LOVE is the glue within the triunity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So, you are more correct ! ..
_________________
Shalom

JUSTMOM SAID

Good morning Morgan

I know it is repeated how important faith is as what can be accomplished with just a mustard seed.

But when I look and hear everything my lord says and shows me,

LOVE is truly the answer to everything. When we can come to understand to a small degree THEIR love ... How JAH is LOVE and Christ reflects HIS love therefore being love ...
Then that love IN us produces ALL the fruitages of the spirit including faith.

We can have faith to be able to do powerful works, but if CHRIST does not KNOW you in the end it is because you do not have the proper garment that covers and identifies you as belonging to HIM .

And that garment is LOVE. It is what is supposed to CLOTHE us. When we are clothed with it, we possess all the other fruitages of the spirit.

I am reminded of the account where those are invited to the marriage feast and the individual that is thrown out is the one that lacks the proper garment, and we know that garment or clothing is LOVE.

But the way the world seems to understand LOVE and the way our lord shows and teaches us LOVE is a whole different picture.

Just a thought
Love Justmom

LOZ SAID

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject:
I think JustMom has expressed it well. It's impossible to love Jah and
Christ if we don't put faith in them to begin with, but faith is a fruitage of the Spirit and everything associated with the Spirit comes down to LOVE.

Loz x
_________________
Don't let anyone put you down, and don't do it to yourself.

AGUEST SAID

Perhaps the thing one needs to ask, dear MS (peace to you!), is can therE TRULY be one without the other? Sure, one can have a FORM of both, love AND faith... even a large amount of love. But is what WE think is love... and what WE think is faith, what the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies think such are? I have learned from my Lord that what I THOUGHT was love... was not. And what I THOUGHT was faith... was not. Both were SERIOUSLY lacking on my part.

Faith is NOT just believing, even that Christ is the Son of God. The demons believe that, indeed, they KNOW it. Yet, such belief and knowledge won't save them. And many religious people would argue you down that they have faith; yet, when one shares that they have heard the voice of the Fine Shepherd, they immediately doubt and deny that truth. Most that anyone CAN even so hear... even though Christ himself is recorded to have SAID... as to HIS sheep:

"The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." John 10:3

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice..." John 10:16

So that of BOTH groups (those of Israel and the nations who belong to him) he said:

"My sheep know my voice" John 10:27

Those who deny the TRUTH of this phenomenon CANNOT be said to have faith. How CAN they, if they can't even accept Christ's own words on the matter? And the fact that there have been imposters is no reason for such lack of faith. Some doubt, yes... and so the "inspired expression" is to be tested. But one who doesn't even bother to do that... but arbitrarily and summarily dismisses (unless it's, like, obvious, which it can be)... because they don't BELIEVE Christ speaks... isn't a person of faith. Rather, they are showing themselves LACKING faith... because they don't TRULY believe Christ rose from the dead... and LIVES.

As for love, one who DOES have faith in Christ KNOWS... that love does not, cannot... stop at one's family and friends... or even at brother, neighbor... or stranger... but MUST go as far as ENEMIES. Because THAT is the love REQUIRED to PROVE that one is a Son of God:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may prove yourselves children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the nations do that? You must be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:43-48

This "perfection" is in LOVE:

"Y[color=#0040FF]ou must LOVE God... with your WHOLE heart... mind... SPIRIT... and strength; and you MUST love your neighbor AS yourself."

Unfortunately, we ALL fall short in these two categories. Praise JAH... there is not only a TEACHER... who can help us learn to SURPASS the Law (as to love) and walk by FAITH (not sight); there is also a ransom when we fail. And we WILL fail. But we will fail LESS... if we listen to that One when he speaks to us... personally and individually... and TELLS/SHOWS us where we lack love and/or faith!

And so it is by being joined to HIM, so that one knows him and is known BY him... and thus is COVERED by him... that one will be saved. No one is saved, yet; however, many have received a TOKEN of that salvation, holy spirit... which is a manifestation of the PROMISE of salvation. Can that token be revoked? Absolutely. Remember the parable of the talents/minas... and what occurred with one who buried his. Remember the account of Ananias and Sapphira. Remember the warnings that wicked men will arise from WITHIN us.

And remember who Babylon the Great is: those who were ONCE in union with Christ, but committed adultery with other "men".

The only people who are guaranteed salvation are those from among the sons of Israel... who are "sealed." They ARE sealed so that the promise TO Abraham CANNOT go unfulfilled. The WTBTS teaches that some of these fall away and are replaced. They entirely miss the POINT of the sealing, though. Once something is sealed by JAH... it cannot be broken. He knows who to seal... and when.

Everyone else (i.e., the great crowd) must "make the calling and choosing of (themselves) sure." That is why THEIR number is not known nor can be known by man: because it is based on time - when the Door to the Ark (of the Covenant) is "closed" by JAH. Some have been 'shutting' that door before men for millenia (Matthew 23:13). For some, praise JAH, only Christ or JAH can close it. Or, rather, him. Revelation 3:7-11; John 10:9)

I hope this helps.

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

PSACRAMENTO SAID

I agree with Shelby
I don't see how one can have faith without love or love without faith.
I don't know which comes first, IF one can come first.
Look at all those we love, do we not have faith in them?
Look at all those we have faith in, do we not love them?

AGUEST SAID

Look at all those we love, do we not have faith in them?
Look at all those we have faith in, do we not love them?

(Smile) Indeed, dear P (the greatest of love and peace to you!)! And so we can ask, then, do we TRULY love someone we DON'T have faith in? And do we TRULY have faith in someone we don't love?

That is what I learned from my Lord about my faith in and love for him and the Father. Do I TRULY love them... if I don't have FAITH in them (and so, if I don't have FAITH that they will and DO speak to those they love, DO I truly love them?)... and do I TRULY have faith in them if I don't know them so AS to love them?

If you truly love God and Christ, you cannot help BUT to have faith in them. And if you have faith in them... you cannot help BUT to love them.

And both of these are based on KNOWING them. And so, my Lord did not say that having faith or love means everlasting, but:

"THIS means everlasting life, their KNOWING you... AND the One whom you sent forth."

Not know OF... or ABOUT, dear ones.

Don't me misled regarding "knowledge" or all the other "things" that may be written or interpreted by others. There is knowledge that puffs up... as well as knowledge that leads to death. And then there is knowledge... as in knowing... intimately, as a man knows a woman... a UNION... that leads to life.

KNOWING God and Christ... so as to LOVE... and have faith IN... them... is what leads to life. We can partake of Christ's flesh (bread) and blood (wine) all we want... but if we do not DISCERN what these are/represent... WHOSE flesh and blood... and what it DOES... then what, really, is the point? We are only using them a some kind of talismans. In which case, can we truly say we know him?

I know listening and hearing is hard for some. But think of this: would you not make yourself a literal FOOL for someone you TRULY loved... and had faith in? You would. A zip, dang fool... and hang ANYONE who had a problem with that. But that unwillingness to appear a "fool" is often what holds us back, keeps us not only from LISTENING but from hearing. Having BEEN fooled before doesn't help.

But that is the same thing as blaming a current partner/husband/wife/mate/friend/child/parent... for what some other(s) may have done to you. And doing that can effect the FULLNESS of the new relationship, can't it? IF, though, you are willing to LET GO of the things BEHIND... and focus on the things AHEAD... including a NEW relationship with Christ, one you have NEVER had before, with ANYONE else... and EXERCISE that faith you believe you have... so as to HEAR him... it gets easier.

And in this way you, TOO, can be led... into ALL truth... BY the Truth (John 14:6; 8:32, 36) by doing so.

OR... you can let your lingering distrust dictate, indeed, cause you to lean upon your OWN understanding... and go through life trying to figure OUT the things related to God. That's what most do, however, and well, look where it's gotten them: no closer to Christ... and thus, no closer to God... but having a FORM of "godly devotion"... but proving FALSE... to its POWER.

Doubt is a form of distrust, dear ones. And even with our fleshly relationships, can you TRULY say you love and have faith someone you distrust? It is man (including ME!) that you should doubt and perhaps even distrust (and so test the inspired expression if your spirit needs to).

But not God and/or Christ. Because doubt... is a LACK of faith... AND love.

I hope this helps.

Again, peace to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

TEC SAID

Yes, I was thinking the same... that these - faith and love - are intertwined. They go hand in hand. I could not seem to figure out which one could come first or how you could have one without the other either... but of course, that makes sense about knowing Him, so as to have someone to love and put faith in.

Christ also said "If you love me you will obey my commands, and my father will love you, and we will come and make our home with you."

Peace,
tammy

ATALOA SAID



You know, Shelby, that is a very good point. So many people find it easy to believe the stories of Christ, but find it too incredible that he could speak to them or anyone. It just doesn't seem to be congruent; even though I've been guilty of it too.

AGUEST SAID

So many people find it easy to believe the stories of Christ, but find it too incredible that he could speak to them or anyone.

Part of me understands it, dear Ataloa (good morning and peace to you, dear one!); I cannot say that I would believe it if someone told me they heard Christ speak to them... unless what they said he said made total sense and COULD be "tested." Because of this, being able to test the inspired expression (which MUST be possible, yes, else why the admonition?), though, the other part of me doesn't understand why people just don't DO that: what WOULD something from Christ SOUND like? What WOULD the words be?

Some tend to think they would be more words of judgment and condemnation... than explanation, clarification, enlightenment, discipline (as in guidance and training NOT punishment!!!!)... and truth. THAT, I didn't get. Because I did't get where folks are getting Christ as being like that, EVEN if they look at what's written (in the Bible). It was something that "disturbed" me as a JW.

And so, of course, I asked about that and the "answer" was simple: what comes OUT of people is what's IN people. If, then, it is IN one to judge and condemn... that is what they're going to SEE and HEAR in Christ, even if there's no other basis FOR it. The judging and condemning words and works of others... the "voice of strangers"... will APPEAL to such ones. Contrastly, to those whose hearts are forgiving and merciful... that is what they will hear and see in him... in his words... in his acts and actions... in his teachings... and in his message.

And when they finally come to see and hear HIM... they are able to see the "image" of God that he is. That is how one can know that the picture painted by MAN of God... is false. Even Ghandi, who said he "liked [our] Christ" could "see" that.

I hope this helps.

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

ZOE SAID

I have not put a lot of faith in the bible in my life but one thing I do believe is that Love is a must and it works. I don't think faith works as well without it. Especially in the case of people teaching the bible in religions and wanting us to have faith in it. Look how it is in the JW religion, the WT says to have faith in "them" but their works show no love and it is failing the people.

My favorite scripture is and always will be 1 Corinthians 13 and my favorite verse there is verse 13. "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

I have a Art poster made of hard plastic on my wall in the bathroom, I have had it for years so I read it everyday and often. It comforts me. It is ! Corinthians 13: 4,5,6,7.13. It is done up in a painting with baby cherubs and flowers surrounding the verses.

AGUEST SAID

That's how we can know that for the most part JWs are among those who have a FORM of godly devotion, which form proves FALSE to its power, dear Zoe (peace to you, dear one!): because their love OFTEN fails. And love... NEVER fails.

Their's fails because of their love for the former husband/caretaker of Israel, Moses (and thus, his law, the OLD Covenant, and the judging and pointing of the finger that it can foment)... rather than the TRUE husband and caretake of Israel, Christ, their king (and thus, HIS law, the NEW Covenant... and the mercy and forgiveness... and thus LOVE... it foments).

"By their FRUITS you will know them."

LOVE... is a fruit of God's holy spirit... and showing love even to one's enemies is PROOF of that spirit, which spirit makes one God's son. Contrastly, judging, condemning... and hatred, even of one's enemies, is a LACK of that spirit... and thus PROOF that one is NOT God's son.

I totally get how the words of your poster "speak" to you. May the day come when you can hear the Source of those words speak to you, when he and his Bride say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who IS love... which spirit is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Holy Spirit, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... and can bear "fruit" in YOU... FREE!" Revelation 22:17

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID





So SO true. Perfectly said. Praise Jah for such wonderful wisdom, reminders and encouragement!

love Justmom