xjwsforChrist

PSACRAMENTO SAID

From another forum:


My reply:

Those are very hard questions to answer and, of course, you know that and that is why you picked such horrific examples.
And rightly so because, like you, I am very aware of the world we live in, perhaps more so.
If I were to tell you of the atrocities I saw in my time in Bosnia, well...
You answer would have been to Kill those people before they did that.
There are no guarantees that God coming to them would make them stop it, and the only 100% sure way to stop anyone from committing a crime is to kill them before they do it, any other way leaves open the possibility of it happening, no matter how small.
So, I myself have asked God WHY, oh WHY does He permit such things to happen, why does he NOT interfere ( because that is exactly what He would be doing, interfering in the order of things).
He used to, I mean the flood, the Egyptians, He killed people all the time right?
Of course those are the things He gets accused of being a genocidal murder for, so...
But WHY listen to us? why listen to our accusations of Him? Why not ignore Us and rule over us with His "iron will" and kill those that are to commit such things? heck, why not keep them from being born?
Look at the case of the mother that cooked her baby, God could have prevented the birth of the baby, heck God could have prevented the birth of the mother, right?
Or God could have prevented whatever happened in that poor ladies life that drove her to thinking that cooking her child was an option in her horrific life?
God could have prevented all that right?
In fact, to spare Us all of the horrific world we live in, God could have just prevented the existence of Man.
But why stop there?
Animals suffer too, then God could have prevented ALL that by simply preventing LIFE from happening.
So simple really.
And yet...
He choose to create, to instill in Us the understanding of Good and evil so that WE can take responsibility for OUR actions.
You see, that woman that killed the baby or sold her daughter, she wasn't alone in what she did, WE are all responsible for that.
WE who created this world in OUR image, WE who made society in OUR image, WE who permit that killing is a viable option, WE that permit that people have a replaceable value, that some people are more valuabel thna others because of where they are born or how much money they have.
WE are the problem, why?
Because WE want God to fix what WE broke BUT under OUR conditions.
Or we don't believe in him under OUR conditions of what WE think God should be.

AGUEST SAID

Well said, my dear, dear brother Paul (the greatest of love and peace to you!)!! I couldn't have shared that better. Nothing to add to that except that our dear Lord himself also had to make the SAME choices WE do:

"Therefore JAHVEH himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. Isaiah 7:14-16

Even our Lord didn't come into THIS world KNOWING how to reject bad and choose good: he had to LEARN to do so, which he did from the Father:

“Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." John 5:19

"ALL your children will be taught by JAHVEH, and great will be their peace" Isaha 54:13; John 6:45

"Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered..." Hebrews 5:8

The "suffering" spoken of here is NOT the scourging my Lord received, but the DENIAL OF THE FLESH that he learned... and endured... which cause "suffering" for that vessel. For instance, when we deny our bodies food, it "suffers." Same with water. Same with sex (whether lawful or unlawful). Same with air. Or ANYTHING our flesh "longs" for. When we deny it it's desires (that candy bar, soda, beer, ice cream, pizza... whatever... it complains and protests! It... suffers!)

"Then I was by him, a master worker, and I was his delight daily, my rejoicing always before him" Proverbs 8:30

The versions that render my Lord as a "master worker" are kind of misleading in that they don't fully tell the account. He came to BE a master worker, yes, because he APPRENTICED first! He learned WHILE he was "by" the Father, the FIRST Teacher... as ALL "masters" do! During the time he is speaking of here he was LEARNING from JAH... and working along side him, while having HIS work "refined"... in preparation for (1) becoming JAH's appointed KING... and (2) coming HERE to share [about] that with US! He was learning JAH's ways and will! And he was a MASTER learner... so as to be a master WORKER... because rather than being UNHAPPY at and "belittling" the "discipline"... or training... he received from JAH... as many of MAN is... HE REJOICED with it, ACCEPTED it, and LEARNED by it. So that, ultimately, it resulted in PEACEABLE fruit, namely RIGHTEOUSNESS, in HIM... as it can in US! Hebrews 12:4-17

But most don't want this discipline. Like some small children, they was to "do it themselves". Learn "by their mistakes." And that IS one way to learn. It is not always the BEST way, though. There are at least two better ways:

1. Learn by LISTENING to... and following the directions of... the teacher; or

2. Learn by OTHERS mistakes.

While one may learn by their own mistakes, the lessons often come with great pain... to oneself AND to others. If, however, one exercises WISDOM, so as to LISTEN to Wisdom (Christ)... oh, the pain one can avoid! For themselves AND for others. If one can't do that, however, hear so as to listen to Wisdom (Christ), then one would do good to also learn from the mistakes made by others. I often told that to my children: "Don't be so quick to do something. Watch others, see what THEY do, how that comes out, THEN decide what to do!"

Praise JAH... they almost always listened - LOLOLOL!

Peace to ALL of you dear ones!

YOUR servant, as I am servant to the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Well said Shel, well said indeed.

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Just to add a bit here.

Like Christ and all other creations of God we have Free Will.

We have the freedom to choose the right or left the good or the bad, etc.

However it's in these choices that often times are unwilling to accept the consequences of our actions and blame God.

A few examples of what I mean.

A person chooses to live in Los Angeles which lies along a major seismic fault. There are earthquakes that kill many thousands. Who is at fault?
God because he allowed the tectonic plates to relieve the stress placed upon them or are we responsible because we chose to live in this area despite the danger?

What about those who live along a coastal plain and a hurricane strikes?

Is God responsible because he didn't interfere in the natural weather cycles of the Earth or are we responsible because we chose to ignore warnings/ or built our homes there?

What about plagues, famines, etc? Is God responsible or is this a result of our own over farming, erosion of the landscape, ignoring what is best for the environment for the sake of lining our own pockets, using more than what we need to survive?

Over and over we humans blame god for things we could have easily prevented or taken steps to insure the loss of human life is minimal.

But we don't. We do what we want and then blame the person who in actuality is the least to blame.

Paul Sacramento brought up some very good points. It's because we as a society allow these things to happen, that they happen.
many atrocities such as children starving in Africa or the devastation of the HIV/AIDS virus in that country could be halted altogether if we simply practiced what God has already set forth, but we don't.

We allow certain governments to steal the aid we provide to those people and then do nothing about it. Why? Because in reality we have nothing to gain from doing so (at least not politically nor economically). Humanitarian aid rarely results in a profit for the one giving said aid. Hence why no one government tries to invest a whole lot of money into helping these downtrodden ones. Rather than seeing it as an investment in our future, many people see it as a waste of vital resources.

Then we have the HIV?AIDs epidemic in Africa. I hate to point fingers but it's a reality that certain religious groups have encouraged their followers NOT to use condoms which in their mind is against the God given ability of procreation. However what this does do is cause the spread of this terrible virus and more mouths to feed in an already desolate land.
The solution would be to remember that Jesus valued human life over a rule or Law, yet many religious leaders just want their followers to obey them and have no real interest in their welfare.

If condoms were used, if unwanted pregnancies were kept in check, if people practiced monogamy, if people (after discovering that they had the virus) abstained from sex altogether,.....THEN the virus could be stopped dead in it's tracks and eradicated within a very short period of time.

But it won't because we humans think we have the right to do as we please no matter the collateral damage to others (either presently alive or not yet born).

We suffer because we choose to suffer, yet we blame God for OUR choices.

YSandFSofC
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

TEC SAID

Paul I also think you answered very well, and agree with all else that has been stated.

Sorry, but i don't think i have anything I could add

Peace to you all,
tammy

AGUEST SAID

We suffer because we choose to suffer, yet we blame God for OUR choices.

Some, yes, dear MS (peace to you, dear one!). However, many suffer because others oppress or disregard them, while others suffer at the hand of the Adversary. So, SOME of us suffer because we make choices that CAUSE our suffering. Some, though... indeed many, if not MOST... suffer because OTHERS make choices that cause their suffering. Not everyone can choose where they live entirely. It's the choices of others, sometimes, however, such as builders, developers, politicians, bigots, etc... that can force one to live in a certain place... or not be able to live in a certain place.

Any of us can expend time debating as to who's the blame. And many do. Others, though, focus on and look forward to solutions... including, for some, looking forward to God's kingdom. Of course, we still should be doing what we can to relieve the suffering of our fellow humans in the meantime. Else... what's the point?

It doesn't have to be on a grand scale - it can be your neighbor (who might even be your enemy)... or the guy on the corner holding up a sign. None of us really know the circumstances that brought such one to that point, so why judge? If the Spirit "moves"... just obey. If not... consider doing it anyway. I mean, since there NO law... against love!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID

So much encouragement here THANK YOU!


Justmom

KASSAD SAID

PTERIST SAID

Yes, we all have and will confront the issues of evil and suffering to some degree in our lives. Books like "When bad things happen to good people" by rabbi Kushner, and sundry aboud on the subject. We have the book of Job in God's word that gives some insights into information that was not readily available to Job as he was accused by his "friends" of doing wrong deeds because the assumed norms that bad things only happen to bad people on the principle that we "reap what we sow". One of the conclusions is that principle is not always the case "IN THIS LIFE" but rest assured like Job, integrity to doing good and not cursing God despite our conditions has it rewards in the eternal plan. Ephesians 1:1-10

Theists and atheist alike don't have ALL the answers on this subject, but what amuses me is that the later blame the evils and suffering on a god that they say does not exist. As a Christian, I don't know why my late wife had to go through so much suffering as she died of cancer, it would seem a quick death would be more humane. However what Christians are given is not just a faith IN Jesus, but the faith OF Jesus as the author of our new life is also the sustainer to bring it to full maturity. Is this a crutch ? sure it is and please give me two, because without the eternal and enduring qualities of Faith, Hope and Love we are lost in a dying world.
Shalom brothers and sisters, keep me in your prayers and all those in the household of The Father in Christ.
_________________
Shalom

AGUEST SAID



This... and THANK you for it, dear, dear Kassad (peace to you)!



Of course, dear Pterist (and peace to you, as well!). Indeed, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of our God and Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and the love and peace of our dear Lord, His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, be upon you BOTH... and your dear households... to time indefinite!

YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

TEC SAID

C.S Lewis was the first (and only) 'christian' theologian i read, because my sister got me the book after i stopped studying with the wts. I was hurting and she was trying to help. But it was a very hard read straight out of the wts thinking. Trinity, hellfire, everywhere... it was straight from the devil!

I did enjoy reading what you shared from his writing above, Kassad.



Yes. I think some cannot understand how we don't blame the evils and suffering on God, and instead take responsibility ourselves, as mankind.

I am sorry about your wife, and I also will keep you in my prayers.

Shalom,

tammy

PSACRAMENTO SAID



I wanted to address this.
First off I agree that no religious hierarchy should demand one type of birth control method over another, especially to committed adults.
That said, to think that condoms is the solution to the AIDS situation in ANY country is, well, incorrect.
People that are having unprotected sex with others and are NOT in a committed relationship, are not using condoms because they don't want to.
We forget that the RCC only approves sex in a committed, monogamous relationship ( marriage).
The incidence of STD in catholic countries is actually less.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... frica.html

The fact is that only abstinence will stop the spread of AIDS.
The fact is that only people NOT engaging in dangerous sex acts with people that they are not committed to, will stop the spread of Aids.
Fact is that only by NOT engaging in intravenous drugs will the spread of Aids stop.

Anything else is subjective.

People that engage in illicit sex with multiple partners are already going against the church, why on earth would we think that reason they don't use condoms is because of the chruch telling them not to?