xjwsforChrist

MEDEWTYSENU SAID


Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: Predestination and Free Will
I had a lively discussion with a person in the shelter last night about Predestination and how it affects God's servants. Nick (the other person in the discussion) basically stated that the Bible supports the idea or concept of Predestination (I disagreed) and showed me one scripture to support his case. My apologies for not being able to recall the scripture but many more will be quoted that support this notion.

Now the way I understand Predestination is in accordance with God's will and defined by His name "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be" or "I am that I am" which says whatever God deems to come about will without fail happen. However the Wiki article shows various scriptures that go beyond that simple concept and seem to indicate that Yahveh chose certain ones before they were even born to be his prophets (this does not seem to mean that they will succeed in their task, only that they were chosen).
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5 NIV)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestina ... estination

Nick's assertion was that everything that a person does has already been decided beforehand. I brought up the betrayal of Judas Iscariot and asked if he meant that Judas had no choice but to betray Jesus and he said yes, which I disagreed with. This would mean that Judas Iscariot had no choice but to betray Jesus, which makes little sense to me as it would therefore indicate that he was condemned before he even committed the betrayal because Yahveh had decided long ago that it would be him and not someone else. This also takes away Judas' Free Will which also doesn't seem in harmony with Yahveh's righteousness and mercy. It also contradicts other scriptures where Yahveh tells people to choose life or death, which would be meaningless if everything we do is preordained and we have no choice in the matter.

I can accept the concept that whatever Yahveh decides will happen will indeed come to pass. However those persons responsible for certain deeds are not named specifically, only that there would be certain persons with a part to play. Peter could have very well betrayed Jesus as he at one time did not accept Jesus' statement about being killed by the Priests. Jesus of course rebuked Peter immediately but it's safe to say there was probably some left over resentment on Peter's part. Someone had to betray Jesus but the OT prophecies never mention a name, only that it would occur.

So the question is are we Predestined (possibly even against our will) to carry out certain acts? Do we really have a choice in the matter?

I'll go on record as saying that how I understand the concept is that we do indeed have free will to choose to accept God's Will and play a part in his plan, but the success of God's plan does not depend upon certain individuals as God could easily raise up stones to complete his task. Free Will simply means we can choose to serve God in the capacity that he has selected us for or not. Our choices in God's Predestined plan is what praises or condemns us.

So what I am driving at is it seems many in Christendom (or elsewhere) do not seem to understand exactly what Predestination is and how it relates to God's Will.
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Calvinists have of course, very specific views on predestination.
IN short, God predestines those that will believe in Christ and all the rest, those that don't, as condemned to "hell".

Predestination is in regard to WHO will believe not when, or why or how, all that is based on the individual, BUT that they WILL believe because they were predestined to believe is a "fact".

I don't agree with this and believe that while some are indeed predestined by God for special works ( like the apostles and so forth) and that they are predestined with special gifts, it is still their choice.
Of course they will chose to serve God, I mean, how can they not?
When exposed to the ultimate love how does one NOT want to serve?

The issue of free will is applicable to the choice being made being made as a free choice, ie: the person is free to choose otherwise.
The choices MAY be weighed more on one side or another of course, by example the choice to serve God in heaven or rule in Hell, but as we know, some to take the other choice.

How does the issue of predestination effect free will?
It doesn't because those predestined for "good works" are predestined because God KNOWS they would choose "yes".

Omniscience is what allows God to predestine some WITHOUT effecting their free will.