xjwsforChrist

This thread discusses the issue Zoe, if it helps ....


viewtopic.php?f=34&t=312

Loz x

Edit it won't appear?? Odd....

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Here's what Tec posted back in April:

I would like to share some understanding I received today, and I would like to share the understanding first and then the scientific understanding. As the faithful understand, we are spirit 'underneath' our flesh. I put underneath in quotations because that's not quite the right word. Spirit 'hidden' or 'covered' by flesh might be better. Because there isn't a particular spot inside of us that houses a spirit, like a cupboard. But as I now understand it, the flesh can be put off... and also put back on.

Many who have faith already know this. But what had me 'leaping for joy' earlier, was that science is beginning to back this as well. I mean, of course it MUST, because there is no conflict between science and God. Only a conflict in our (mis)understanding of either one of them. But I didn't realize or eXpect that it would begin to happen in my 'time'. In more 'scientific' terms though... it can be described as this:

Spirit (energy) can manifest itself as flesh/physical (matter).

Two things in science provide evidence for the truth of this. (not proof, yet, but evidence)

One: Energy and Matter. Einstein stated that matter an energy were different forms of the same thing. Energy can be matter and vice versa.

Two: The Standing Wave theory that a couple posters have pointed out. States that we are all energy at our most basic level, but that we manifest as physical, at least to our five senses. (I'm not sure I understood fully about this further point, but energy moves in waves... and standing energy manifests as matter.)


I find both of these theories to be very eXciting! Not because I need them to believe what Christ already stated, but because these provide evidence for matters in my faith! Both of these seem to work together (and of course they must). And if one could control this transformation between matter and energy (such as this 'standing wave'), then one could literally put on and put off the flesh.

In practical terms for believers, this takes care of one of the major sources of contention between various theological stands on the resurrected and risen Christ. I don't usually worry about theological matters, but my understanding became more clear when given this as an eXample:

Some say that Christ was resurrected in the flesh and ascended bodily into heaven.

Some say that Christ had to have been resurrected and ascended in spirit because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. How could a physical being enter a spiritual place/realm? This was always my problem with a physical resurrection as well, although why go through the trouble of pointing out that you had flesh, if you were spirit?

But by this understanding, and these theories, BOTH are right. Christ was resurrected in the flesh (as he said and showed his disciples). He was raised up bodily, sure... but then entered a spiritual realm as a spirit because he could return to spirit. He could put off his flesh. (He can also put it back on, since He is going to return as He left.) Spirit beings (angels) can also travel between both realms, because they also can put on or put off the flesh. (or move from energy/spirt to matter/flesh to energy/spirit)

I know this science is very new (especially in terms of the age of mankind), and all of the implications still in the beginning stages. But these discoveries provide some of the 'how' of things I knew happened, but on faith in Christ and in His teachings. I'm sure what I understand is still just a drop in the bucket of things to come... but it would seem to me that those things, the evidence, is coming. It is very eXciting! Christ said to his disciples that He could not share many things of the spiritual with them because they could not yet bear it or understand it. He kept his teachings in simple terms according to the understanding they could handle at the time. Now as we're discovering more and more, the science is backing those first simple terms in greater detail.

Anyway, for believers, all that contention and arguing over physical resurrection or spiritual ascension for NOTHING. It can be both. It is both. And I have no doubt that there are other contentions that are not really in conflict as well... just our lack of understanding puts them in conflict.



Loz x
Hope you don't mind me re-sharing this Tammy.

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Absolutely, Armand.

Sorry, Zoe, I think my answer was misleading.

If the only two available concepts are spirit or body, then of course, Jesus did become spirit when ascended into heaven. The Jehovah's Witnesses use the term "spirit creature", which of course cannot be correct for he was not a creature.

The structure of the word "creature" gives us a clue when we look at it. It comes from the same root word as "create" , for a creature has been created. Made. The Son of God was not created. He is the Son. He is of the same substance, the same "beingness" as the Father, who made all things, and Christ was there right at the point of creation. We know that; we are told it. Therefore, he cannot be a spirit creature.

He is con-substantial, inextricably linked with the Father, and therefore also co-eternal, He always is and always has been and always will be. He is not the Father, but he is of the Father.

So, perhaps you can see why I balked at "spirit creature". It's important to understand, and Jehovah's Witnesses don't. They deny Christ's divinity.

No, I don't mind at all, Loz, thanks : ) I was going to bump it myself (but I have done that before, and it did not feel right to bump it myself again )

I echo all that has been shared, Zoe, regarding the spiritual body.

Peace,
tammy

I got it now, it was as I thought that he became a spirit but Char confused me when she said no he wasn't. It was all a misunderstanding of me saying spirit creature instead of spirit.

I don't need to understand anything but the spirit versus the fleshly body. I think we all are mostly on the same page now.

Well, we know what flesh and body mean, but what is not defined is spirit.

Now, Christ is divine. I am not happy to say he is spirit, because that makes spirit a very loose term. Christ is absolutely not in the same category as the angels, for instance, or of other spirits. Christ is the Son of God, of the same unknowable substance as God the Father.

To say simply that he is spirit is really not right. It reduces him, not in fact as if it actually reduces him because of course nothing we can do or say can do that, but it does verbally, and to the understanding of those who are still seeking and do not as yet have a sure faith.

Applying labels and definitions to God, to Christ, is not something that should be done lightly, because the divine essence is far above and beyond our understanding as humans.

Hello Chariklo,

Thanks for sharing what happens on Ascension Day and why it is important for you. We live in a widely varietal world and I love hearing about how things are done in different places and the reasons behind it. We can learn a lot, and understand each other better by taking the time to listen. Its not all about us and our point of view, we share this rock flying through space with many others.

Cool.

Much appreciated

_________________
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr Seuss

Yes, I like that, Winston, that's how I see things too!

I lost my first post, lol... brb with a retype. It was not long...


Peace,
tammy

It isn't lightly to say Christ is a spirit, dear Char (peace to you, my dear!). He is the image of God and the very representation of God's being... and per Christ, GOD... is spirit:

"God is [a] spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24

If Christ can say God is a spirit, dear one, then WE can say God is a spirit. And if we can say GOD is a spirit, we can say CHRIST is a spirit. Indeed, Paul said Christ was the HOLY Spirit:

"For the Lord IS the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:17

Many believe in a trinity consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (although this is inaccurate - there are only two, the Father... and the Son, who is the Holy Spirit). If, however, they believe in a Holy Spirit that is part of that trinity, how can they reconcile that God Himself is NOT a spirit.

Angels are spirits, yes, and one day, some from among mankind will be so, too. BOTH, however, were/are MADE spirits (Psalm 104:4; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:36). Unlike Christ... who was born (OF his Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, a SPIRIT... and the FREE wife of that One, the "woman", "Sarah"... "Jerusalem Above" (Galatians 4:26; Revelation 12:1-6)... which is the spirit realm (John 3:5).

While all angels are spirits, yes, not all spirits are angels. Certainly, the Father is not nor is the Son. For angels are SERVANTS... OF the Father and Son... and those who belong to them. Hebrews 1:5-15

My Lord, the HOLY One of Israsel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah) is absolutely a spirit being.

I hope this helps, both you and dear Zoe (peace to you, as well, dear one!).

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Me, too, dear tec (peace, chile'!). Not just the post but the "draft" I saved. I wonder what's up with this board. If saving posts isn't safe... I dunno, girl. It's pretty, yes, but losing posts can be frustrating - LOLOL!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

This is the exact verse that I had posted, and the gist of my post too, lol.



I believe that they are looking into the lost posts deal. I will bug them again.


Peace,
tammy

Wink and smile at dear Tec - peace... and, yeah, that's what I "heard"... that you and I were posting the "same" thing at the "same" time - LOLOLOL! Which is why I commented on the forum glitch - LOLOLOL!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama (who waves at dear, dear Armand - peace to you, my dear, dear brother!)

I understand and realize that Christ is a higher form of spirit. By referring to him as a spirit I did not mean that he was not Devine and a higher spirit than the Angels.

I totally got what you meant, dear Zoe (peace to you!). Unfortunately, the human understanding of what is "spirit" can limit our understanding as to what God and Christ ARE... including their "substance." Funny, science has shown that WE, humans, have "electricity" and "energy" in us... indeed, we ARE energy (E=MC2), yes? What they miss is that (1) we are only a tiny bit of the energy that truly exists (which, if one considers the size of the universe we KNOW, one might be able to understand that); and (2) we come from a much greater Source of energy.

We discussed elsewhere that God has and is "dynamic energy". Light is also energy... and Christ... is THE Light. Which Light came FORTH... from an even greater energy Source. He also referred to himself as the "Life", did he not? And the spirit... IS life.

So, ALL living things are spirits, dear one. Spirits... residing in earthly/physical/terrestrial vessels. Christ, once a spirit in a spirit vessel, put off that vessel and took on a physical vessel (so as to be tested "in ALL respects" as we are), then put off that physical vessel... flesh with ITS blood... and put on the robe of "state" and "clean turban" (Zechariah 3:1-10)... and even HIGHER "white robe" or SPIRIT body... than the angels have... than those of his Body will one day have... and that he had BEFORE. THIS time... he was EXALTED to the RIGHT hand of God.

Prior to, he was higher than the angels, yes, even than the cherubs, those who are princes in the spirit realm. He went from being just the Son and Word... to becoming the PRINCE of princes and KING of kings. Why? Because, although the Son, he EMPTIED HIMSELF OUT... and took a SLAVE'S form... and proved himself WORTHY, by means of proving the Adversaries accusations against HIM... FALSE... even to death. Because of this, HIS blood could "atone" for the sins of many, indeed everyone who put faith in him... AND in the life-giving properties OF his blood.

For THAT... he was exalted to the position of "Joseph"... and was given a body even BETTER than the one he had before. Like Joseph, he was a beloved son of the TRUE wife (Rachel), who allowed himself to be overcome by his own brothers... sold into slavery, which he did not fight against but, by giving the glory to GOD... was ultimately exalted into Pharaoh's house, second only TO Pharaoh... and from that position was able to SAVE his brothers.

When people understand what a spirit is (not some zephyrous phantom, etc.), but actual beings... just not flesh with ITS blood... they will perhaps BEGIN to understand what God "is." They can get an inkling... and a start... by understaning what Christ "is." Which they can DO... is they (1) LISTEN to that One, so as to (2) TURN TO that One, so as to (3) SEE that One... plainly and as he TRULY is... and so (4) "see" God. Who IS dynamic energy and light... which, if "filtered", will reveal a being whose appearance man cannot see and live. Because of the appearance... and the wonderful, wonderful light... that existed LONG before THIS world came into existence.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA, who wishes to remind you of the "light" that flashed forth... and so need for "scales" to be placed over the eyes of Saul of Tarsus. BOTH give indication as to what Christ is made of and appears like.