xjwsforChrist

I'll take all the help I can !

On a serious note:
Paul asks his congregations to pray for Him and He prays for them.
I don't see anything wrong when people as me to keep them in their prayers, unless of course they think that will make a difference, know what I mean?
That said, I don't know of anywhere in the bible that teaches to pray to the dead.

In regards to where the saints are, yes some believe that the saints are in Heaven AND that they are conscious.
Elijah and Moses were there with Christ during the transfiguration for example.
Paul is in conflict about staying on and doing his job and dying and going to be with Christ.
IN Revelation those under the alter in Heaven don't seem to be "sleeping peacefully".

So, according to some, some do indeed go to heaven after they die.

I am sure that we will all find out soon enough.

Dangerous indeed AND very easily taken to mean what it doesn't.
According to Calvanists, it implies "predestination" of all - that some are predestined to believe and others are not.
To others it ( set apart for good works before they were even born) means that some were chosen for special tasks ( like John the Baptized).
The issue ISN'T in that those words appear but how they are perceived RIGHT NOW.

No where does it state that those that are set apart are better than anyone else, the gospels actually go out of their way to show that is not the case ( Peter, Paul, James are examples) BUT WE tend to associate "different" or "set apart" as better.

That is OUR fault.

It's ALWAYS our fault, dear one (peace!). And we allow such fault... when we follow and listen to anyone other than Christ. He is the ONLY One who doesn't succumb to such things. We, all of us, can only avoid doing so if we remain in union with him... which includes obeying HIM... rather than obeying and following [the teachings of] man in these things.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

The problem there is if, as you say, it is always OUR fault, then how can we trust OURSELVES to know WHO we are listening to?

How is it possible for saints or holy ones to pray on anyone's behalf if they are " under the altar" awaiting the resurrection of the rest of the body or saints or holy ones in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
As part of the " FIRST resurrection" ( means NO resurrection prior to this one??)

Which according to these verses is yet for the future.
We are still awaiting Christs return to gather those that belong to him (saints, holy ones)...notice those still alive when he RETURNS do not precede those that have fallen asleep in death." Verse 17 says " TOGETHER " both the living and those who are dead will be raised and taken.

It is written and not a JW teaching!

How is this overlooked so easily?

Just a thought
Love Justmom.

The resurrection refers to the BODILY resurrection not what happens to the spirit when we die.
The spirit returns to God.

Paul I do understand that,

The spirit returns to Jah. They were given their white robes (spirit bodies) and told to " rest" under the alter ( bosom postion of Abraham, versus being in the world of the dead Sheol and hades)
They were told to rest until the full number was filled and then the resurrection would begin with THEM being resurrected and those that are ALIVE when the master returns to gather the holy ones or saints.
It would take place at the same time.

So even though because of spirit in them differentiates where they rest ( under the alter) versus those that do not have Holy Spirit going to the world of the dead ( Sheol/Hades)
They are still considered dead in the fact that they cannot influence the living on earth.

So I do not see them as kings and priests until ALL are resurrected ( living and dead) and able to petition on anyone's behalf until CHRIST sits down on his throne with THEM! Matthew 25 31-46

Love Justmom

The resurrection refers to the BODILY resurrection not what happens to the spirit when we die.
The spirit returns to God.[/quote]


Paul I do understand that,

The spirit returns to Jah. They were given their white robes (spirit bodies) and told to " rest" under the alter ( bosom postion of Abraham, versus being in the world of the dead Sheol and hades)
They w ere told to rest until the full number was filled and then the resurrection would begin with THEM being resurrected and those that are ALIVE when the master returns to gather the holy ones or saints.
It would take place at the same time.

So even though because of spirit in them differentiates where they rest ( under the alter) versus those that do not have Holy Spirit going to the world of the dead ( Sheol/Hades)
They are still considered dead in the fact that they cannot influence the living on earth.

So I do not see them as kings and priests until ALL are resurrected ( living and dead) and able to petition on anyone's behalf until CHRIST sits down on his throne with THEM! Matthew 25 31-46

Love Justmom[/quote]

Yet this isn't a JW forum. Yet..." Under the altar"..."I do not see them as kings and priests unti all are resurrected"...

Honestly, and I mean nothing unpleasant, but when I read things like this I just feel bemused.

Yes, we Catholics ask the angels and saints and Mary the Mother of Our Lord to pray for us and join their prayers with ours and we know with our whole heart that they do, and we love them for ir. We might light a candle to symbolise that. Under an altar? Waiting to be kings and priests?

St Paul wrote "seeing we are surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses let us run the race set before us" and so we are and so we do, in the glorious mystery of Christ's great love for us.

We CAN'T trust ourselves, dear P (again, peace to you!). Hence, we are to TEST the "inspired expression"... as to it SOURCE, yes? Because not ALL inspired expressions originate with God? Yes?

Even so, it is always our fault that we DON'T/CAN'T/WON'T listen. This does not mean that we SHOULDN'T listen. We SHOULD. And the more we DO, the more we come the KNOW the One speaking... so that we will know HIS voice when he DOES.

Same as with you and I, dear one. When we first "met", we had no way of knowing if each was trustworthy, truthful, even serious, yes? The MORE we "spoke" with one another, however, the more we came to KNOW one another, yes? So that NOW, if someone said to me, "Well, PSacto said..." I could either say, in response, "Yes, he would have said that," or "No, uh-huh, dear P would NEVER have said that!" Even more so with, say, your own wife... or daughters, yes? You have communicated with them enough to KNOW them, so that if someone said they "said" something YOU would know whether what you were told was reliable/truth... or not. Or they (your dear wife and girls) as to YOU. Yes?

Same thing, dear one. The more one listens to... and obeys... Christ... the more one comes to know him. And so, it becomes easier and easier to "test" an inspired expression attributed to him. One can KNOW that he would say... or would NOT say... a certain thing.

That you are a man of fault does not mean that your wife and children don't can't trust what they KNOW you would do and/or say.

THIS... means everlasting life: our KNOWING the True God... AND the One He sent forth. We know the first (God)... by KNOWING... the second (Christ). And what is the most INTIMATE way of knowing someone? By means of a union. Either in flesh... or, as with Christ and his Body/Bride... a union of spirit.

I hope this helps, dear brother, truly!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

The issue of the state of spirits in Heaven is one that is not addressed explicitly in the bible.
Implicitly we have what appears to some as conflicting views, hence the saudacees that did not even believe in a resurrection.

Many passages can be taken to mean certain things, perhaps conflicting things ( Moses and Elijah were with Christ and quite active, Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man is another example).

I can honestly say that I do NOT know for sure what happens when we die other than our spirit returns to God.
I know of some that have had NDE's that can't be explained as anything other than a conscious spirit outside the body.

Well said Shel, well said.

It isn't, dear Char (peace to you!).



I realize that, by your own admission, you didn't really spend much time in association with JWs. However, you claim an indepth knowledge of their beliefs that your comments repeatedly deny. For instance, here: JWs don't believe this... or teach it. To the contrary, they believe that the resurrection has already occurred, starting in 1914, and that since that time each "anointed" one IMMEDIATELY goes to heaven upon death (in the flesh).

That is not what Christ or Paul taught, however... and not what John saw or wrote about. YOU, then, are the one whose beliefs are most similar to JWs on this matter. Yet, neither you nor they have any substantiation for such belief (that the resurrection... either the first OR the second... has already occurred... or WOULD occur before Christ returned). You both just say it... "because" it's what you "believe."



Perhaps you will condescend to read Revelation 6:9-11, dear one. From the Jerusalem Bible. Perhaps that will shed some light on that truth for you.



First, Paul didn't write that, contrary to it being attributed to him. Lazarus ("John") wrote it. Second, you overlook what he said BEFORE that. I exhort you, read Chapter 11. Particularly were dear Lazarus wrote about what these "witnesses" were (still) AWAITING... which has yet to arrive, even now. And note, the Greek word for "witnesses" is "martyron"... which correlates to those who are, yes, "under the altar"... and why they are.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you! Truly!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

"By my own admission"?

I've already said, so many times, five, maybe six years in all, the first three, maybe nearly four, of talking regularly with some JW's who returned very regularly, to whom I frequently gave a cup of tea and once a meal and with whom there were lengthy discussions, one having been a Catholic. Then, as I have recounted, a further two years "studying" the various books, becoming an active unbaptised publisher and going out at least three, sometimes four lengthy sessions knocking on doors, every week, and mixing intensively with the local JW's and receiving phone calls many times a day from a very dear, sick, elderly sister in a congregation an hour away, and visiting her and her daughter regularly.

Studying intensively so that the Presiding Overseer told me, on completion of my pre-baptismal questions, that I knew more than most of the sisters in the KH, and more than any pre-baptismal candidate in his whole experience, and he in his sixties. Similarly the DO, who visited and talked with me and with whom I corresponded.

What was it you said? I "didn't really spend very much time with JW's." "By my own admission".

Evidently it depends on how a person sees things.

To you, those years of intensive contact equate with I "didn't really spend much time in association with JW's." all by my "own admission" of course, since all this has been recounted here several times.

Six years. Not much really, in a lifetime.

Or

Far, far, far too much. Yet a mere insignificance to Shelby, rendering my views not worthy of consideration, presumably by my "own admission".

What it is to be so very experienced. By your own admission, I think, Shelby, you said you spent fifteen years with them, or was it eighteen. About twice to three times mine.

Thus, yes, your experience of them is truly vast compared with my trivial, insignificant contact, by my "own admission".

What's the phrase of this evening? Ah, yes....*shaking head*

Your statement(s)... to ME... and here on the board... to the effect that it was actually a very SHORT period of time (you only left the RCC for them for a brief time, thank God!... remember??), notwithstanding, dear Char, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Because I don't know if YOU can see it or not (I truly don't think you can)... but your "understanding" of what JWs teach/believe... is wrong... nine times out of the ten times you comment on it. Folks keep routinely "correcting" you as to what YOU say JW's "believe." My LOVE for you, however, forces me to give you the benefit of the doubt and not question the EXACT amount of time you say you spent among them. Along with the fact that I don't really care.

But you continually show that you really have NO clue as to what JWs believe or teach. Now, it COULD be that you WERE there a longer period of time than your "knowledge" suggests. I would warrant, however, that if that was the case, you didn't know how to listen any more THEN... than you do now.

Your listening skills, then, really could use some work, dear one. Consider it? Thank you!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Char says...

Yes, we Catholics ask the angels and saints and Mary the Mother of Our Lord to pray for us and join their prayers with ours and we know with our whole heart that they do, and we love them for ir. We might light a candle to symbolise that. Under an altar? Waiting to be kings and priests?

Dear Char....

This is where I must agree to disagree with you.
I must test it against CHRIST. I must test it against what is written.

We are to Pray to the father ONLY through the SON!
Christ ONLY as our high priest!
None of these people died for me!

If you say you " ask them to pray for you" then you must be praying to them FIRST which is a no- no.
You have to go before them in spirit and ask them to pray for you in order for them to hear you and pray for you. That is no-no.

CHRIST is the only WAY dear Char. No one else!

What do think the promise is to those holy saints in the kingdom?
Revelation 5:9-11
Didn't CHRIST tell them they would " sit on thrones". It is said by our lord and written.

I must disagree my sister
Love to you always
Justmom